Can the year of manufacture be determined by the frame or engine serial number(s)? I have an Ace90 frame, # starts with "A" and is on a tag on the left above the upper shock mount. (as shown on the FAQ's)
The motor in this frame starts with "P".
I have no paperwork or history and if I want to try for title here I need to know what year it is. (the headstock decal is gone)
Also; I'm guessing that none of the frame numbers matched the engine numbers on the B+ either? I understand that they begin with different letters but should the numbers that follow match?
thanks everyone.
Relic
Year identification of Ace90 frame
Year identification of Ace90 frame
Last edited by relic on Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I wonder where this goes...?
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Deleted
Last edited by Zyx on Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Ace 90 should have a frame number starting with an A, engine with a P. None of the frames had a P prefix.
As for the year, I notice the revised chart doesn't identify other than the gross years of production. Seems to me there was a chart kicking around that was more specific, but it isn't on the website anymore. I don't remember specifically if it broke down production by year. Perhaps someone still has it, or perhaps Paul can answer if he has the data.
As for the year, I notice the revised chart doesn't identify other than the gross years of production. Seems to me there was a chart kicking around that was more specific, but it isn't on the website anymore. I don't remember specifically if it broke down production by year. Perhaps someone still has it, or perhaps Paul can answer if he has the data.
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Yes, sorry---that was a typo on my part. The frame does start with an "A". I've edited my original post.Arizona Shorty wrote:Ace 90 should have a frame number starting with an A, engine with a P. None of the frames had a P prefix.
As for the year, I notice the revised chart doesn't identify other than the gross years of production. Seems to me there was a chart kicking around that was more specific, but it isn't on the website anymore. I don't remember specifically if it broke down production by year. Perhaps someone still has it, or perhaps Paul can answer if he has the data.
thanks for the correction.
Relic
I wonder where this goes...?
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Later models had a data plate that identified the month and year of production, but not, I think, the 90's. I also doubt they were produced with a model year in mind. Rather, over a period of several years, Hodaka made a whole bunch of 90's. Even later models weren't really identified as, for example, a 1974 model or a 1975 model. They were Wombats and Super Rats. The year of production was sort of incidental.
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Ok, thanks for this info. I suppose for the purpose of telling the happy folks at our version of the DMV what I've got, I could make a guess based on the number of Ace 90's produced over the 1964-67 model years and where my serial number falls within that total. The chart says that a little over 17 thousand were made, starting with 0001 and mine starts with 12xxx so would I be far off saying that mine was produced in late 1965?Arizona Shorty wrote:Later models had a data plate that identified the month and year of production, but not, I think, the 90's. I also doubt they were produced with a model year in mind. Rather, over a period of several years, Hodaka made a whole bunch of 90's. Even later models weren't really identified as, for example, a 1974 model or a 1975 model. They were Wombats and Super Rats. The year of production was sort of incidental.
As I see it, they would be pretty hard pressed to tell me I'm wrong.
Of course they will probably tell me they have no records of these bikes and therefore have no way of confirming it was produced as a street legal motorcycle. They seem to look for any excuse to turn you away these days. But I'll give it a good try anyhow.
Relic
I wonder where this goes...?
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taber hodaka
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Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Tell us the frame number and we can tell you about when it was built. In Montana you could have had a ace 90 made in 1965 and if you did not do the paperwork on it until 1967 it was titled as a 1967. The very first ace 90's were different and many of the parts never showed up in the parts books I call them prototype. The early production ace 90 was called a MK \\ it had low handle bars, a short back fender, small taillight and a stubby mud flap. Then they came with high bars, a big taillight, extended rear fender with a brace. Give us the number and we can get close on the date. ------------Clarence
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taber hodaka
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Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
I see your number is in the 12000 range it would have been built in October or early November of 1966 that is as close as I can get with the numbers offered. All ace 90 were street legal. -----------Clarence
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Assuming you do not have a title for the bike, most states are going to demand a bond before issuing a title. It is like a reconstructed title, you just start from scratch. Call it a 66, or made that late in the year, you could call it a 67. For example, my Ace 100 was sold as and titled as a 1971. However, it was made in September 1970. No doubt you will have to pass a safety inspection, so everything is going to have to work according to your state's standards for motorbikes. Whether the bike was originally made as a street legal device won't really matter at this late date. The question will be is it legal now, and is it stolen. The inspection answers the first question, the bond answers the second. If someone shows up demanding to find a stolen bike (usually within a three year period) and it turns out it is the one you bonded, if they have proof of ownership, you forfeit the bike and the bond. That way the state is held harmless for issuing title under a cloud.
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Agree with Clarence. I immediately thought 1966 when I saw your frame number in the 12000 range.
The way I identified mine is that I looked at the change log in the beginning of the Ace 90/100 workshop manual. It indicates the date and frame number where a major change was implemented. Find where your frame number falls between two major changes and take a good guess from there. You can also extrapolate the average number of machines produced in between two dates to help with your guess.
$0.02
Roger
The way I identified mine is that I looked at the change log in the beginning of the Ace 90/100 workshop manual. It indicates the date and frame number where a major change was implemented. Find where your frame number falls between two major changes and take a good guess from there. You can also extrapolate the average number of machines produced in between two dates to help with your guess.
$0.02
Roger
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
I wouldn't expect the year to be all that important. As mentioned, if we can't find a definitive answer, how would DMV do so, unless of course it was titled somewhere recently and they find that record. Most states don't have records going back all that far. I contacted Iowa DMV regarding the title on my RD350B, which was last licensed in Iowa in 1980. They had no record of the vehicle, even though I have the title and plate, and gave them the numbers.
So even if your state did a broad search, unless it was titled somewhere within the last five years or so, they won't find anything. Instead, they will simply start title process, but require a cash bond usually for about 150% of current value. Since that is also a relative unknown (KBB and NADA don't list 1966 Hodakas) it will be up to you to show value. This forum would be a good source for current value, so if it is worth, say, $1,500, you could bond it for $2,000 to $3,000 and DMV should be happy. The cost of a bond will be about the same for $2K as for $3K, so it makes little difference to you and more makes DMV happy. But you will have to ask them.
I bonded a 1968 Kaiser for $3,000 in Alaska through a bonding agent, and it was fairly cheap, like $100 or so. Check around. Then get whatever they have on safety inspection standards and make sure yours is good to go. As for year, when reconstructing a title, states do wacky things. I have a 1955 Bantam trailer with an intact manufacturers data plate, but Alaska titled it as a 1961 home built because they could not internally verify date of manufacture, and went with the date someone first approached them for a title, 1961. Go figure.
Only way to find out is to find out.
So even if your state did a broad search, unless it was titled somewhere within the last five years or so, they won't find anything. Instead, they will simply start title process, but require a cash bond usually for about 150% of current value. Since that is also a relative unknown (KBB and NADA don't list 1966 Hodakas) it will be up to you to show value. This forum would be a good source for current value, so if it is worth, say, $1,500, you could bond it for $2,000 to $3,000 and DMV should be happy. The cost of a bond will be about the same for $2K as for $3K, so it makes little difference to you and more makes DMV happy. But you will have to ask them.
I bonded a 1968 Kaiser for $3,000 in Alaska through a bonding agent, and it was fairly cheap, like $100 or so. Check around. Then get whatever they have on safety inspection standards and make sure yours is good to go. As for year, when reconstructing a title, states do wacky things. I have a 1955 Bantam trailer with an intact manufacturers data plate, but Alaska titled it as a 1961 home built because they could not internally verify date of manufacture, and went with the date someone first approached them for a title, 1961. Go figure.
Only way to find out is to find out.
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Oregon keeps all records forever on microfiche. The last bike I tried to title(lost) has the plate and when they looked it up, the lien the bank put on the title was never removed by the bank, and I need a letter from that bank stating they have no interest in it. The bank was bought/merged with another bank back in the 70's and probably happened a few more times since. I know the banks aren't going to care about a 1969 ct70 but Oregon DMV does. Makes for a pain you know where. I'll try again when I want another headache.
gm
gm
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Oregon has become an anal retentive, bureaucratic, socialist state. No doubt old bike records are not all they keep, but soon, I hear, you will be able to buy dope, so everything is cool. Maybe they figure if everyone is stoned all the time, they will have fewer hassles in the DMV line.
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taber hodaka
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Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
A Arizona bill of sale for a old motorcycle with an inspection lights, horn ect with get you a title and license plates here in Montana. Clarence
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
No doubt, but Montana thinks differently than does Oregon.
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Thank you all for the information.
I'm in Canada and similar to you folks there are differences here between provinces as there are between states when it comes to this sort of thing.
Its been a few years since I've obtained ownership, (as we refer to title) but like you guys, there are many hoops to jump through and the entire process makes you wonder what the big deal is...will our society crumble to bits just because one more old motorcycle is back on the road?
Ontario requires the buyer to first pay $20 for an info package that normally lists all the previous owners, dates, mileages and whether there are any outstanding liens on the vehicle. However if the serial number is not on the province's computer system the game stops there. It could be that the vehicle was never registered, as in the case of enduro bikes that were only used off road. Or it could be that the vehicle hasn't been plated since before the computer system was in service. Often the case with old bikes that have been forgotten or abandoned.
If the bike is not on the system you must start by seeing a licensed motorcycle dealer who takes photos of the bike including the serial number and on company letterhead states that he has viewed the bike and confirms that this serial number is on this bike. He also confirms what model bike it is based on the serial number and whether or not it has been modified.
All this is fine, if for instance a Yamaha dealer provides this service for a Yamaha motorcycle. But when you are dealing with a brand that is no longer in business, (Hodaka for instance) it doesn't make much sense. But it needs to be done. Some dealers charge for this, others don't. It mostly depends on how well you know the dealer.
Once you have this paper you visit the DMV (or MTO office as we call it) and they have you swear an affidavit saying that you are the rightful owner of the bike. Again there is a charge for a notary to witness this. And then you pay for the ownership which will be issued in your name but will be "unfit" and "unplated". From there you have to have the bike safety checked by a licensed shop that has a licensed technician on staff. (techs complete a five year apprenticeship including three in school sessions of three months at a time and finish with a 3 hour written exam which must be passed by at least 70% to be licensed)
If the bike passes the safety check (which is quite extensive), then its back to the MTO office where you pay another fee and obtain a current plate. You need proof of insurance to get the plate and our insurance rates for bikes are crazy.
Part of the trouble with all this is that the offices are no longer government run and the contractors seem to play by different rules from one office to the next. My local office refuses to deal with anything beyond the usual so I have to go to a larger city and try there.
If any of you are still with me and have read through all this boring crap you may wonder why anyone would go through it all just to ride a 40 year old bike?
Or better still, why would anyone purchase a used bike without the paperwork? I swore after the last one that I would never buy another vehicle that didn't have proper ownership but then along comes a great deal on a DT360 and three Hodaka frames and parts and here I go again. 
I'll update as I make progress both on the paperwork front and on the Hodaka projects I have lined up.
and---thanks again for you help.
Relic
I'm in Canada and similar to you folks there are differences here between provinces as there are between states when it comes to this sort of thing.
Its been a few years since I've obtained ownership, (as we refer to title) but like you guys, there are many hoops to jump through and the entire process makes you wonder what the big deal is...will our society crumble to bits just because one more old motorcycle is back on the road?
Ontario requires the buyer to first pay $20 for an info package that normally lists all the previous owners, dates, mileages and whether there are any outstanding liens on the vehicle. However if the serial number is not on the province's computer system the game stops there. It could be that the vehicle was never registered, as in the case of enduro bikes that were only used off road. Or it could be that the vehicle hasn't been plated since before the computer system was in service. Often the case with old bikes that have been forgotten or abandoned.
If the bike is not on the system you must start by seeing a licensed motorcycle dealer who takes photos of the bike including the serial number and on company letterhead states that he has viewed the bike and confirms that this serial number is on this bike. He also confirms what model bike it is based on the serial number and whether or not it has been modified.
All this is fine, if for instance a Yamaha dealer provides this service for a Yamaha motorcycle. But when you are dealing with a brand that is no longer in business, (Hodaka for instance) it doesn't make much sense. But it needs to be done. Some dealers charge for this, others don't. It mostly depends on how well you know the dealer.
Once you have this paper you visit the DMV (or MTO office as we call it) and they have you swear an affidavit saying that you are the rightful owner of the bike. Again there is a charge for a notary to witness this. And then you pay for the ownership which will be issued in your name but will be "unfit" and "unplated". From there you have to have the bike safety checked by a licensed shop that has a licensed technician on staff. (techs complete a five year apprenticeship including three in school sessions of three months at a time and finish with a 3 hour written exam which must be passed by at least 70% to be licensed)
If the bike passes the safety check (which is quite extensive), then its back to the MTO office where you pay another fee and obtain a current plate. You need proof of insurance to get the plate and our insurance rates for bikes are crazy.
Part of the trouble with all this is that the offices are no longer government run and the contractors seem to play by different rules from one office to the next. My local office refuses to deal with anything beyond the usual so I have to go to a larger city and try there.
If any of you are still with me and have read through all this boring crap you may wonder why anyone would go through it all just to ride a 40 year old bike?
Or better still, why would anyone purchase a used bike without the paperwork? I swore after the last one that I would never buy another vehicle that didn't have proper ownership but then along comes a great deal on a DT360 and three Hodaka frames and parts and here I go again. I'll update as I make progress both on the paperwork front and on the Hodaka projects I have lined up.
and---thanks again for you help.
Relic
I wonder where this goes...?
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
I am in southern Ontario and I have obtained ownerships for several of my Hodakas, but I have yet to put one on the road. My experience is pretty much the same as yours, but I take a slightly different route. What I do is go to the local MTO office with the serial number to see if it is in their data base (I have never had one that was). I then go to town hall with a completed affidavit, ask to see the commissioner of oaths, and then swear that I am the legal owner of the bike and that the information on the affidavit is true. I give them $30 and they stamp and sign the affidavit. I then go back to the MTO office and have them create the ownership and pay them a $10 fee (I think) plus the tax on the selling price of the motorcycle. I then have the ownership paperwork with the bike listed as "unfit". I don't recall the $20 dollar information package, but I am sure that was in there somewhere. Getting the bike listed as "fit" is as you have described, with a trip to a certified mechanic.
Everyone I talk to has a slightly different experience, and some have even been turned away completely. I think it works best if you smile a lot, tell them you really appreciate them helping you with this process, and pick a day when they are not that busy.
Brian
Everyone I talk to has a slightly different experience, and some have even been turned away completely. I think it works best if you smile a lot, tell them you really appreciate them helping you with this process, and pick a day when they are not that busy.
Brian
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
You are so correct in that experience's vary from office to office. The $20 package I referred to is the "Seller's" package that for the most part buyers end up paying for. (it also serves as a bill of sale and states the sales tax that they will collect if the vehicle is in the system etc).BrianZ wrote:I am in southern Ontario and I have obtained ownerships for several of my Hodakas, but I have yet to put one on the road. My experience is pretty much the same as yours, but I take a slightly different route. What I do is go to the local MTO office with the serial number to see if it is in their data base (I have never had one that was). I then go to town hall with a completed affidavit, ask to see the commissioner of oaths, and then swear that I am the legal owner of the bike and that the information on the affidavit is true. I give them $30 and they stamp and sign the affidavit. I then go back to the MTO office and have them create the ownership and pay them a $10 fee (I think) plus the tax on the selling price of the motorcycle. I then have the ownership paperwork with the bike listed as "unfit". I don't recall the $20 dollar information package, but I am sure that was in there somewhere. Getting the bike listed as "fit" is as you have described, with a trip to a certified mechanic.
Everyone I talk to has a slightly different experience, and some have even been turned away completely. I think it works best if you smile a lot, tell them you really appreciate them helping you with this process, and pick a day when they are not that busy.
Brian
If the serial is not listed than you can't get the package and thus the process you described begins. The part about having a licensed dealer verify the VIN (serial number) is relatively new and is being asked for by some offices and not others.
I'd really like to be able to plate both the Ace's I intend to build. I doubt I'd insure them both in the same year but either would be a fun commuter bike for me as I have ten miles each way, about half of which can be done on gravel roads.
Who knows, If I ever retire I may ride one to Athena...its only 2500 miles from here.
Relic
Relic
I wonder where this goes...?
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Got a better idea. Move to Montana...soon. (Frank Zappa reference, sorry.)
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taber hodaka
- Posts: 2240
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Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Arizona I think that you have been sitting around drinking too much sour mellon juice. Oregon Oregone , Montana Frank Zappa ? Frank isn't on our music charts up here and we do not grow dental floss in Montana. I like the song Meet Me In Montana by Tyler Barham and Cassey Walker. Now back to Hodaka. Being nice in the DMV line does pay off, they will help all they can if you are respectful. Tell them they sure look cheerful and ask if they ever have to deal with negative customers, let them know you really appreciate their help. I have Montana titles for homemade motorcycles. Arizona you sure did a nice job on your 125.
------- Clarence
------- Clarence
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Clarence
Also all we have to do in Montana is bring the bike with us to the DMV and the sheriffs will come out and inspect it and issue you a
paper stating it is street legal and there is no own title for a bike that old. They will check just in case but I have not had any problems, even with the bikes I bought out of Canada. Then you can get your plates. Thank God Montana is not that picky.
MTRob
Also all we have to do in Montana is bring the bike with us to the DMV and the sheriffs will come out and inspect it and issue you a
paper stating it is street legal and there is no own title for a bike that old. They will check just in case but I have not had any problems, even with the bikes I bought out of Canada. Then you can get your plates. Thank God Montana is not that picky.
MTRob
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
If I have trouble here in Canada I'll bring the bike down and visit you guys in Montana. You can get it titled there for me and then when I get home it will be no problem to just transfer it over.MTRob wrote:Clarence
Also all we have to do in Montana is bring the bike with us to the DMV and the sheriffs will come out and inspect it and issue you a
paper stating it is street legal and there is no own title for a bike that old. They will check just in case but I have not had any problems, even with the bikes I bought out of Canada. Then you can get your plates. Thank God Montana is not that picky.
MTRob
I could bring some good beer...
Relic
I wonder where this goes...?
Re: Year identification of Ace90 frame
Update---as of today I now have the ownership, (title) in my name for both my B+ and my Ace 90!
Turned out the 90 was on the system, (after they had first told me it wasn't) and registered to a fellow I know. He had sold it to the guy I bought it from. With receipts from seller to seller to me and some other red tape complied with I'm good to go.
The Ace 90 was originally registered as a 1966 model so your help with year identification was right on.
So now I build the bike, get it safety checked and then I can go back to the dmv and get plates. That won't happen for a while though as my B+ project is up first. At least now I don't have to worry about paperwork and the ability to plate the bike when I do start it. I can happily spend money and time knowing that when I'm done I can actually use the bike.
thanks everyone!
Relic
Turned out the 90 was on the system, (after they had first told me it wasn't) and registered to a fellow I know. He had sold it to the guy I bought it from. With receipts from seller to seller to me and some other red tape complied with I'm good to go.
The Ace 90 was originally registered as a 1966 model so your help with year identification was right on.
So now I build the bike, get it safety checked and then I can go back to the dmv and get plates. That won't happen for a while though as my B+ project is up first. At least now I don't have to worry about paperwork and the ability to plate the bike when I do start it. I can happily spend money and time knowing that when I'm done I can actually use the bike.
thanks everyone!
Relic
I wonder where this goes...?
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