Starting ACE 90 and key positions

[CURTISHARVIE]

After a year I have finished my grandfather's 65 Ace 90 (pictures to follow tomorrow)! How the heck do I get this thing into neutral to kick start? What are the 3 key positions?
Looking forward to putting many miles on the ole girl!
~Curtis

[socalhodaka]

Are you aware that the shift pattern is 1 up 4 down.

[CURTISHARVIE]

I wasn't until I heard from Paul this morning. My old Honda CB goes the other direction. Thank you so much!
~Curtis

[taber hodaka]

Am I wrong ace 90 were 4 speed 1 up 3 down? Clarence

[CURTISHARVIE]

According to Paul they are 1 up 3 down which I did not know. I will give her another shot tonight after work and confirm for you on here.
~Curtis

[Zyx]

I always figured it was an anti-theft device, having a non-conformal shift pattern. I suppose Paul answered the question about the key positions.

[CURTISHARVIE]

Yep off/run/run with lights. Hahaha. I sure as heck couldn't figure it out :0)

[rlkarren]

Looks like you figured it out but...

3 Key positions. In the Manual they are called Off, Day, and Night position. In the Day position, you should have Stop light, Speedometer light and horn. In the Night position it turns on the headlight and taillight, but the motor must be running to get those lights as they operate directly off the AC current from the magneto.

And yes, the Ace 90 is 1 up, 3 down. The Ace 100 is 1 up 4 down. From what I've been able to determine, a good way to know is if the Shift Cover said "Ace" on it, it was 1 up, 3 (or 4) down. The Shift covers that said "Hodaka" were 1 down, 4 up.

$0.02

Roger

Anxiously waiting for pictures...

[CURTISHARVIE]

Fantastic! I will post some tonight! I'm very excited to have a resurrected classic back on the road!

[CURTISHARVIE]

I cannot get this bike into anything resembling neutral I've tried kicking her in every click the shifter makes and can definitely feel the gear between 1/2 but it still wants to roll when I go to kick...am I missing something or is there something wrong with the new motor?

[Bullfrog]

There is no "gear" between 1st and 2nd. If you feel one there . . . you are actually in either 1st or 2nd.

NOTE: When the engine is not running, do ALL (repeat ALL) shifting while rocking the machine back and forth. The rocking back and forth creates instances when the following TWO requirements are met to allow a shift to happen:

1. The gears are moving - which allows components to line up for the dead engine shift
AND
2. Provides instances while the gears are moving (back-and-forth) when there is no "load" on the gears - which allows the components line up for the dead engine shift.

Neutral is "half a click" down from 1st. You'll find it much more easily if you rock the machine back and forth while searching for it.

Ed

[Zyx]

With a four speed, you should find five detent positions. If you only find four, you are passing through neutral. If you find five, one of them will be less distinct than the others, and that's neutral. All the way to the top, down a half. Frequently hard to find, and there is a reason. The Hodaka is not like other more typical Japanese bikes. Hodaka uses a constant mesh transmission so that all gears are engaged all the time. Power transmission is accomplished by four 5/16" balls trapped between each secondary gear and the secondary shaft. The foot selector moves a control rod in and out through the centerline of the secondary shaft and engages a set of balls one gear at a time, thus driving the secondary shaft. The usual Japanese bike uses sliding forks and gears which engage one gear at a time. Shift selection often feels more positive with a sliding fork arrangement. The blessing here is if you ever have to rebuild a transmission, the Hodaka can be rebuilt, or at least reassembled, in minutes instead of hours.

The downside to this arrangement is that hitting neutral can be a bitch, even with a good transmission. I can't get my 97 to hit neutral with the engine running about 99% of the time. Engine off, I can hit neutral about half the time on the first try. Sometimes it requires using my hand on the lever for greater control and feel. A control rod rebuild is on my list of things to do

For you, if all else fails: put the bike up on a crate so the rear wheel is off the ground; remove the shift side cover; move the control rod by hand while moving the rear tire. If you can find neutral this way but can't with the foot lever, it needs adjustment.

[CURTISHARVIE]

Thank you Ed. So I went out and tried with the rocking. I go all the way up to what I assume is first, because, from there if I go all the way down I get a double clunk, I assume that is neutral and second, from there when depressed and pressed I get another clunk, third I guess, the depressed and pressed it clicks but then depressed from the it clicks again, fourth I assume. So with it in that first clunk down it still will not roll freely nor can I kick it with out the bike moving forward...this is the same for every subsequent "clunk".
~Curtis

[dcooke007]

You did not mention if you dis-assembled the clutch. If not and even if you did and let it sit for a while the clutch disc can stick. Assuming the clutch feels correct when applied you could try to unstick it by riding the bike with the clutch lever held in. You would have to push start the bike, jump on and ride it around. If it is stuck 9 times out of 10 it will break free when ridden with clutch lever held in.

Danny

[dcooke007]

Just re-read your post. Even if the clutch discs stuck you still should have a functional neutral.

Danny

[Zyx]

Time to pull the cover. If it works with the cover off, the problem is in the adjustment of the shift mechanism in the cover.

[Bullfrog]

That "double clunk" when you press down on the shift lever when in 1st . . . means you shot by neutral and into 2nd. Try again. Put it in 1st, then go for a pretty delicate press down on the shift lever to get the half-step needed to hit neutral. A more-or-less standard shifting movement will put you in 2nd virtually every time. (A good thing when shifting to 2nd! )

Ed

[CURTISHARVIE]

Fantastic thanks for all the help guys!!! It's great to have access to such a knowledgable community. I'm headed to the Outerbanks until Wednesday. Will pull the cover when I get back to make adjustments. Even when I stop at the first clunk it still acts like it's in gear and from what I've read on hear seems a tad easy for neutral..

[CURTISHARVIE]

Okay I'm back from the Outerbanks. I took the cover off and the back plate to the shifter, I have no idea what I am looking at and from what I see the shifter is pure magic. Is there a specific way to line this up when putting it back on? May the shifter is clunking but not doing anything with the gears...
I'm not sure how to make these adjustments. I'm getting a little nervous as I would like to reveal the bike to gramps at grams burial Saturday.
Thanks
Curtis

[Zyx]

Nothing like a little pressure. The shifter is not magic. Actually very simple in design. There is a ratchet that accounts for one gear at a time movement, and also translates movement 90 degrees so that a rotational force in a longitudinal direction is translated into transverse (front and back to side to side).

You will notice there is a small half moon wedge on the end of the shif mechanism, and that the contro, rod end has a grooved knob on the end. The little wedge thing goes into the grooved knob. If it was assembled with these parts not engaged. You would have either first or fourth, but nothing else, and probably one one or the other of first and fourth.it simply would not shift out of whatever gear it was pushed into. You need to take the small inspection cover off so when you put it back on the bike, you can see the wedge and knob, and get them hooked up.

As for adjustment, the shifter will only push or pull far enough to hit first through fourth, and the adjustment is really just a means of compromising a bit so that the full range brackets first and fourth rather than favoring one or the other. There are two screws on the shift arm inside the side cover. One is a lock screw or pitch screw, the other an eccentric. Don't adjust these unless you are convinced it need to push a little more to get fourth or first. Once you get it adjusted so it hits first faithfully, the others will fall in line. Usually, first gear requires the shift lever inside the cover ( not the foot lever) to either hit the cover or just about do so when selecting first gear. You can see this with the inspection cover off. If it is working at all, you should get all four gears most of the time anyway, but when misaligned it will have a tendency to miss gears or pop in gear or out of gear when least expected. Of the shaft bushing in the side cover is badly worn, too much movement of the shaft is wasted to slop, and it will not want to hit gears faithfully. If you can visibly move the shift shaft back and forth, not in and out, of the side cover, it is worn out and needs replaced. Attempting to adjust the shifter when the shaft bushing is shot will be frustrating because you will never get it right and won't know why.

Between. Ow and Saturday, just do the best you can with what you have. Make sure the shift lever inside is engaged with the control rod. After that, it ought to work even of not as well as it should.

[Zyx]

Here are two photos to illustrate:

Control rod NOT engaged

Control rod ENGAGED

Notice that in each case the inside shift lever is just about touching the inside of the case. This is first gear position. If you can get this one, the others are there somewhere.

Don't mind the dirt, this engine is out of service at the moment.

[CURTISHARVIE]

This is incredibly helpful! I think what has caused all of this was me remaining the cover and not engaging the contro thus no communication between the shifter and the transmission!

[CURTISHARVIE]

Started first kick! It was my fault. Once I got the controller in the notch it was all gravy from there! Thank you everyone!!! Just need to make a few adjustments and get some electrical bugs worked out. Any idea on where I can get a new horn/ high beam/ low beam switch?

~Curtis