Combat prototype serial #003

[Idahodaka]

For sale in Portland,Oregon CW prototype. It's on craigslist. Too much $$$$ for me.Should be in museum.

[admin]

Don it should be in a museum if the information was correct. I do not mean to "question" the write up that goes with the price but........
Some of the parts I see were not available to Hodaka in 1972
H series engine is not a prototype engine.Also a prototype or even preproduction bike would not have a manufacture date. I have seen the #1 Wombat and it is gorgeous and original #3 would just have been down the assembly line a little bit farther. I would need a lot more verification and with us now working on the Hodaka book with Ken,Ed, Chuck,Marv, Jim etc.... I have learned a lot more in a short time. Not really sure what he meant by if it were #4 Harry would have owned it as #4 was assigned to Harry??
Harry to the best of my knowledge never owned a #4 bike nor cared about frame #'s.
Harry did have #42 which was his road racer.
I will take flack for posting this but stand by what I say "buyer beware".
Paul

[Idahodaka]

Maybe Mr Swanson will weigh in. He is quoted by the owner/seller on all his claims. Be cool if it was true . What is there is what Hodaka should have sold as the Wombat,a seriously fast street legal enduro. It's where I'm going with my model 94,i.e. Combat Kitted. A Japanese, affordable, Penton!

[Bullfrog]

Perhaps some of the flack will be shifted to me . . . I too question some of the information about the bike.

Perhaps some confusion comes from the fact that many production machines which came into Athena for use at PABATCO got modified and ridden by various employees. Did that make them "prototypes" for the next model? Or did that make them "test bikes"?

Ed
( . . . and I sure don't remember Serial #4 of each model run being reserved for Harry . . . or the R&D Dept . . . though it might make sense that the first few bikes in each run got specific delivery assignments based on needs/wants at the time.)

[admin]

Ed I can handle the heat but thanks for the post.
Paul

[Idahodaka]

I hope no one thinks I am applying heat here. I only alerted the forum to see if any of the more knowledgeable members would chime in on this bike. If genuine, I'd like it in my garage.

[bobwhitman]

Unless I'm missing something, this is the bike that was offered at a similarly ludicrous price several months ago. Thoughtful assessment by a number of forum commentators at that time was that it was unlikely to be as represented. Any interested buyers should take great care.
Bob
(in other words, I'm seconding Paul & Ed's very polite comments.)

[admin]

Don let me say this as honestly and as politely as possible. It is to me very doubtful this is or was a prototype of any kind. It is possible that it may have belonged to one of the PABATCO people for test riding but I was not there and cannot say for sure.

It is a nice looking bike with low numbers and some nice parts and pieces but anyone can say anything to describe a bike they are selling this the nature of the beast.
Because he said that Chuck said does not make it true. Harry never owned or possessed a #4 bike to the very very best of my knowledge so where did this come from?

Things like this get my attention because if left to go unchallenged it becomes true over time. One of our very good Hodaka Club members who will not be named bought into a situation very similar to this a couple years ago. I woman from Montana contacted me about a bike she found in a garage and wanted to sell but wanted to know what it was so she contacted me. It was a little bit of everything but the engine was very early Ace 90 that was true.
I told her honestly the truth but then she goes and lists it on Ebay as "The prototype Ace 90" Very very rare . I called and emailed her to tell her this was not true but she would not answer my calls or emails and sold the bike as she represented it and someone I know and like very much bought it.
He got ripped off based on what she was selling. He is a friend and is happy with the bike but not the story or the price he paid.

I promise Don no one is thinking you are applying any heat here it is I that is calling it as nicely as I can and as honest as I can. Maybe I am totally wrong and this was a super secret prototype that escaped my knowledge.. Out of the several prototypes I am lucky enough to have here the numbers do not match up to how the prototypes were marked. I took some time yesterday after these posts to verify what I just wrote. Nuff said.
Thanks guys and gals
Paul

[Idahodaka]

It is sad that we as enthusiasts looking for "A Holy Grail" are viewed as opportunities for a payday by someone less interested in the history of a particular item. I saw the ad & got jazzed over seeing a piece of history. Guess I'm too gullible.I'm too easy a mark for deals like this that have debatable authenticity.Oh well,live & learn.

[socalhodaka]

It is sad that we as enthusiasts looking for "A Holy Grail" are viewed as opportunities for a payday by someone less interested in the history of a particular item. I saw the ad & got jazzed over seeing a piece of history. Guess I'm too gullible.I'm too easy a mark for deals like this that have debatable authenticity.Oh well,live & learn.

Don't feel bad, feel good that we here as a group help out with deals like this. Its hard folk these sellers to get over us with all the knowledge here.

[admin]

Dang Don I did not mean to lessen your or anyone's enthusiasm for the brand. All I hope to do if I can is right a potential wrong. When my (our friend and fellow Hodaka Club member) purchased that "prototype" Ace 90 it hurt me that he was taken.The woman who sold it asked my help and advise which I gladly gave her but then she misled people. Don maybe this #3 is really a prototype or special bike but I do not think so. I am a student of the brand and learn something new everyday with Hodaka's.You are not gullible just trusting and this is a great feature. Please do not change a thing.

Very unfortunate with me is looking always for validation in things. Be it parts we make or bikes we purchase.The new Hodaka book always looking to verify what we are sending to Ken to write. Again please do not let me or anyone else dampen the enthusiasm you have!
Sincerely
Paul

[RHall1972]

The seller just listed it on eBay with a "Buy It Now" price of $7000. Funny, from what I gather, his Craigslist ad kept getting hit with "flagged for removal" notices. I hope no one gets taken -- unlike with Craigslist, on eBay I don't think there's any provision for throwing up a red caution flag.

[Pep]

FWIW, I think you can ask a "public" question that will show up on the listing - it could be phrased into some version of a red flag.
Probably not worth tangling with.
Hopefully no one gets the bad end of that deal.
Another reason to join the Hodaka Club and Forum!
-Laurie

[pappawheelie]

For sale in Portland,Oregon CW prototype. It's on craigslist. Too much $$$$ for me.Should be in museum.

Hey, Im the guy with serial #00003 for sale. I expected some controversy , but had to test the market. Can you blame me? I am not an expert on Hodakas...or anything for that matter. As for the Prototype quote, it was a year ago and I was honored and almost overwhelmed to hear that. Him and his wife ( Diane I think) were together and invited me to an icecream social at Hodaka Days which was shortly after the Pasco show. My bike was not there unfortunatley. Sweet down to earth people. I could had listened to him for days. If you guys are friends with this man, simply call him and ask advise yourself and ask if he remembers saying that. I would hope and pray one of you Hodaka guys could buy it or it could get some high visibility. I am not offended by opinions either. Everyone has one or two for sure. I should make a trip and get him to sign off on it to make it legit. If It doesn't sell I may give that a shot. I remember a nice man Hodaka days offer me a fully restored Wombat Combat once several years ago. You know who you are. So, Is $7000. a lot of money? Yes. But , for a early Hodaka. I think not. I have seen some junk offered for a lot more. I am just as passionate about old motorcycles as most of you and can appreciate cool things. BTW, I have a 5500 reserve. If it doesn't sell, who knows, I may store it for another 20 years. Im 55 years old , have 13 motorcycles (most old) and have no intentions of ripping anyone off. As for the Harry Taylor story, a friend of mine has his trials bike that he verified his by the the #4 stamp on the bottom of frame. We are only 45 minutes from Athena/Walla Walla and he and his restoration partner made a few trips. At least one of his prototypes needed a serial # before he could cross the Canadian border to race once and he chiseled a 4 in it to get it ID'd and across. ( I think I have that story correct) So, hey. If you can advise me better with 100% certainty. Fire away. Thanks for letting me on your forum.

[pappawheelie]

Maybe Mr Swanson will weigh in. He is quoted by the owner/seller on all his claims. Be cool if it was true . What is there is what Hodaka should have sold as the Wombat,a seriously fast street legal enduro. It's where I'm going with my model 94,i.e. Combat Kitted. A Japanese, affordable, Penton!

Hey, If you guys know Chuck, give him a call. I would consider his word gold. As the owner of #00003 I would be willing to chat about it with anyone. My number is 509 460-9243. Please keep in mind I am on the West Coast. Thanks Brian

[pappawheelie]

The seller just listed it on eBay with a "Buy It Now" price of $7000. Funny, from what I gather, his Craigslist ad kept getting hit with "flagged for removal" notices. I hope no one gets taken -- unlike with Craigslist, on eBay I don't think there's any provision for throwing up a red caution flag.

Once again. As the owner of #0003 I would be able to talk about the Hodaka with any of you. Feel free to call me . West coast time. Brian 509 460-9243. I am not interested in taking anyone or making trades. Call Chuck and quiz him if you have that opportunity. Thank you.

[Bullfrog]

I was partial to "X-11" as a "chisel it in yourself" frame or engine number when I worked for PABATCO. You will note that "4" is relatively easy to create with a cold chisel. (which has nothing to do with any imagined system for #4 production bikes being reserved for any particular person or department).

Interpretation of what was said may be different from what was meant. It is quite likely the bike in question spent time at Athena . . . and it has some nifty things on it . . . but that doesn't necessarily make it a "prototype" - depending on the definition of the word "prototype". I suppose it cooooould be said that any bike which was in Athena back in the day, and which received any modification, and was ridden/tuned/worked on by any PABATCO employee . . . was a prototype. But I think that would be an overly broad definition of the word - even though many improvements came about in that way.

Ed

[admin]

Brian thank you for joining the discussion. I love Chuck to death and I have some business today to speak with him about and will mention your sale and post to him. I will also inform him of what facts I have about the possibility of this bike being what it claimed to be.
As for Harry's Trials bike that story is true he did need to have a number on the frame to I.D. it for customs and he did use a chisel to put the #4 but this was not a production frame. He made his own frame after copying a Bultaco Trials bike layout. He had drawn the bikes layout on cardboard on his kitchen floor but again not a production bike. In any of the research that has been going on over the past ten years we have always brought the group of PABATCO employee's together to discuss things. Memories have faded and things in the minds have varied after 50 years. By bringing these people together helps to get the story straight as one might remember things one way and another person a different way.

I can appreciate the very low number 125cc Wombat that you have. The #3 frame and the #82 engine could be a match as the Hodaka frames and engine numbers in most cases did not match. The only exception is the #1 (03) Wombat the frame # and corresponding engine number do match what the books show. For years I had thought that the 250 Hodaka I had here was the prototype and was actually told by Harry that it was. But... upon further discussions with Ed Chesnut, Jim Gentry, Tim Heihn and yes Chuck Swanson I realize that my 250 was a "pre-production" bike that was used mainly by Tim in the R&D dept.
I do have the list of bikes at the very end that were "special" or ones that were by the R&D and general PABATCO employee use that had to be accounted for. Ed's "X-11" is on that list although they have it listed as (X-2) as well as thirty-four other bikes (prototypes,production and pre-production) but the C-00003 is not on that list. The C-00001 is on that list as it was a part of the PABATCO museum display which in June of 1978 was then sold to Ed Martin from Wheels of Time for $ 200.00. This is the only "C" framed bike listed out of thirty-five bikes.
Again nothing on this list for the C-00003 bike at all. I have a letter here that I have come across while researching the Hodaka Story. It is a letter handwritten by Jim Gentry in 1973 after he had returned from Japan while negotiating with companies for improved parts for future Hodaka's. Part of his discussions were with Kayaba who made the forks and shocks for Hodaka's and other brands. The shocks on your bike KYB with cooling fins were being talked about as a possible shock in 1973 I have not seen them available in 1972. White gas caps as seen on your tank were not available until 1973. My main contention is that your bike is not on the list of PABATCO #1. #2 some of the parts on the bike were not available in 1972. #3 prototype bikes or pre-production bikes did not have I.D. plates on the steering heads. "The" or one of the prototype Combat Wombat's ( verified) does not look anything like your bike. I wish you did have a prototype bike but you do not. What you have is a low numbered 1972 Wombat that has had some improved parts added. Very nice clean Hodaka but not a pre-production or prototype sorry. I understand what Chuck may have told you or what you heard truly excited you it would have excited me too but it just cannot be backed up. Because Chuck said it does not truly mean it is true unless verified. I will discuss this with Chuck as you requested but out of personal respect to the man I hate to prove what he had told to you was mistaken. It is not fair to him to do so but to keep the history honest and truthful I will do this today. It sounds to me from your posts that you are a reasonable understanding person.
Thank you for posting
Paul

[admin]

Brian I had forgotten I will be out of the shop this afternoon so I have emailed all of the major players at PABATCO this morning. I have forwarded your Ebay listing to them so they can see for themselves. I will give you an honest and truthful response here after I have heard back from all of them in the coming days. I am doing this as previously mentioned to open a discussion amongst the group and not just rely on one individuals recollections.
Thank you
Paul

[dirtsquirt80]

Paul I have a 175 with no vin tag do you think mine could be a preproduction or prototype? Scott

[pappawheelie]

Brian thank you for joining the discussion. I love Chuck to death and I have some business today to speak with him about and will mention your sale and post to him. I will also inform him of what facts I have about the possibility of this bike being what it claimed to be.
As for Harry's Trials bike that story is true he did need to have a number on the frame to I.D. it for customs and he did use a chisel to put the #4 but this was not a production frame. He made his own frame after copying a Bultaco Trials bike layout. He had drawn the bikes layout on cardboard on his kitchen floor but again not a production bike. In any of the research that has been going on over the past ten years we have always brought the group of PABATCO employee's together to discuss things. Memories have faded and things in the minds have varied after 50 years. By bringing these people together helps to get the story straight as one might remember things one way and another person a different way.

I can appreciate the very low number 125cc Wombat that you have. The #3 frame and the #82 engine could be a match as the Hodaka frames and engine numbers in most cases did not match. The only exception is the #1 (03) Wombat the frame # and corresponding engine number do match what the books show. For years I had thought that the 250 Hodaka I had here was the prototype and was actually told by Harry that it was. But... upon further discussions with Ed Chesnut, Jim Gentry, Tim Heihn and yes Chuck Swanson I realize that my 250 was a "pre-production" bike that was used mainly by Tim in the R&D dept.
I do have the list of bikes at the very end that were "special" or ones that were by the R&D and general PABATCO employee use that had to be accounted for. Ed's "X-11" is on that list although they have it listed as (X-2) as well as thirty-four other bikes (prototypes,production and pre-production) but the C-00003 is not on that list. The C-00001 is on that list as it was a part of the PABATCO museum display which in June of 1978 was then sold to Ed Martin from Wheels of Time for $ 200.00. This is the only "C" framed bike listed out of thirty-five bikes.
Again nothing on this list for the C-00003 bike at all. I have a letter here that I have come across while researching the Hodaka Story. It is a letter handwritten by Jim Gentry in 1973 after he had returned from Japan while negotiating with companies for improved parts for future Hodaka's. Part of his discussions were with Kayaba who made the forks and shocks for Hodaka's and other brands. The shocks on your bike KYB with cooling fins were being talked about as a possible shock in 1973 I have not seen them available in 1972. White gas caps as seen on your tank were not available until 1973. My main contention is that your bike is not on the list of PABATCO #1. #2 some of the parts on the bike were not available in 1972. #3 prototype bikes or pre-production bikes did not have I.D. plates on the steering heads. "The" or one of the prototype Combat Wombat's ( verified) does not look anything like your bike. I wish you did have a prototype bike but you do not. What you have is a low numbered 1972 Wombat that has had some improved parts added. Very nice clean Hodaka but not a pre-production or prototype sorry. I understand what Chuck may have told you or what you heard truly excited you it would have excited me too but it just cannot be backed up. Because Chuck said it does not truly mean it is true unless verified. I will discuss this with Chuck as you requested but out of personal respect to the man I hate to prove what he had told to you was mistaken. It is not fair to him to do so but to keep the history honest and truthful I will do this today. It sounds to me from your posts that you are a reasonable understanding person.
Thank you for posting
Paul

Hey Paul, I appreciate all of that info and did hear the same story about the drawing out of a frame. I know the man who has it. You are right. When a guy like me hears a guy like that ,after hearing his history, say Prototype.... I got excited and natually labeled it as such. Why would anyone not want to believe that? haha I feel I worded it on ebay to let the buyer decide. I also would like to talk to Chuck again and even run it down to him for him to check out if possible for some authenticity. I figure because of its late sale date it may have some 1973 or Combat parts. The main reason I am selling this bike is to start a colege account for my daughter. (the only reason) I am a 55 year old with a late start. haha With that all said. I really didnt expect it to match up with #1 or #2 or even further down the line if they experimented or tested early bikes. Myself, I would think any bike that had been a test bike or experiment would be a prototype. Guess I need to define the word. Anyway, I love all of your peoples passion . If it doesnt sell, I may keep it and take it out more to help atleast set the history in forward motion. I have an ace in my pocket so to speak. Actually a 125 Elsinore I purchased years ago from an estate sale that was crated. Never had gas in it. Good luck to all. I hope this thing stays close to home. Thanks again for allowing me to explain myself as human and not some sort of scam artist. Brian

[pappawheelie]

Brian I had forgotten I will be out of the shop this afternoon so I have emailed all of the major players at PABATCO this morning. I have forwarded your Ebay listing to them so they can see for themselves. I will give you an honest and truthful response here after I have heard back from all of them in the coming days. I am doing this as previously mentioned to open a discussion amongst the group and not just rely on one individuals recollections.
Thank you
Paul

some of my posts have dissappeared!

[Bullfrog]

Pappawheelie:

Perhaps the missing post is the one over in the Marketplace section?

Ed

[admin]

Yes with the Marketplace I personally need to "allow" the post to go live. Although Scott might want it I cannot allow Russian brides to be sold on my site...
Sorry Scott
Paul

[junker2k]

Paul
Did Harry ever own his own Hodaka? I know all the bikes that came through his shop
that he worked on he took part ownership in. I know he told me to treat my shorttracker
like he owned it.
Jack K.