Totally Frustrated!!!

[Bullfrog]

No, I don't think there is any way the hold snap could jump out of the recess which "traps" it. I'm afraid we have to chalk it up to a shot and a miss when doing the installation of the whole kick-start assy. into the case. But that particular shot will never be missed again, right?

Ed

[viclioce]

Well my query was about the start of the whole episode. Just wondering HOW the kickstart shaft could be ratcheting freely in both directions like it did initially? Everyone thought it was a cracked bearing retainer. No damage there. I couldn't check positions on things splitting the case initially. But the kickshaft was functioning exactly like the hold snap was not being retained. Just trying to get an understanding on this for future reference. Don't want to be pulling the motor all the time because of the possibility that whatever it was could happen again. So, any other thoughts or ideas? ; ) Victor

[Dale]

Victor, I am wondering if you are using the common home made assembly jig for your engine assembly? If not, I can see how things might move or slip out of position as the cases are brought together. The jig is a thick block of wood with holes drilled into it to allow the right engine case to sit flush on it with the crank and all shafts extending down into the drilled holes. Then all internals are stacked into the right case and finally the left case is lowered onto the right case. If you are not familiar with the assembly jig, I know that there are pictures of one (a rather nice one) here on the forum.
Dale

[viclioce]

Don't know anything about a jig. Just doing it on my workbench. It's back together now, correctly this time.

But, my original question was and still is, what could make the kickshaft act as if the hold snap had come loose to begin with? This whole thing started with the fully assembled motor acting as if the hold snap was no longer being retained.

If you have a link to the jig you're talking about, I'd like to see it. ; ) Victor

[AndyL]

Victor,
Just a guess here:
But while you were assembling the cases, I would guess the kick shaft was push back into the right case half and allowed the clip to either move out of the pocket, or slide up the roller cage.

Then when it was kicked once, it popped out of place.

Here is a picture of the jig I use for Hodaka case assembly. Two short pieces of 2x10.
The holes allow for clearance for the shafts and let the case half sit flat on the board. This keeps the kicker, crank, etc from getting pushed out of place in the right case half.

FYI: This side is labled "Hodaka" becaues I have the other side of the boards drilled to fit the Suzuki TM cases/shafts.

[Dale]

Thanks for posting the picture Andy. I do not have access to mine right now and, of course, I was not able to find the specific posting that I had referred to. Sorry Victor, I don't have any further ideas as to what caused your initial problem. I do believe that if it is assembled correctly, that it would take either excessive wear, incorrect component or component failure to cause slippage. If your parts are in good shape and you have it all assembled correctly, you should be good to go.
Dale

[Bullfrog]

Like Dale, I can't come up with any explanation of why you originally experienced the kick starter failure . . . though . . . IF the kick starter system worked properly for quite a while, and then started "slipping" - only part wear or damage could account for that. (the parts simply can't "jump out of proper alignment after assembly) On the other hand, if the kick starter system never worked properly for you, that is an indication that it was assembled improperly before you got it. These two "conclusions" are based on your comments that all the components of the kick start system seem to have passed your close inspection as being OK. I'm hoping that your assessment of the parts is correct, which would indicate the problem won't quickly re-appear due to part wear or damage.

All indications right now seem to be that the parts are indeed OK . . . and that improper assembly has been at the root of the problem all along.

Ed

[viclioce]

Wd. Yes it was working prior. I had actually started the motor with it. Was having to adjust the idle & jets for this elevation after cleaning the carb. Then my neighbor, a former MC mechanic started messing with the jet & idle settings causing the motor to stop running.

He left and I continued to kick it numerous times but she wouldn't start because of his manipulation of the carb. While trying to start it again with continued kicking, the kick shaft failed to engage any longer. This was the onset of the problem which lead to the motor/tranny tear down. The failure to reassemble correctly was after finding no issues with parts, but replacing seals, bearings & bushings. That's the whole history of it.

Now I have to put the top end back on, manually adjust the carb as I did previously to have it at a position for jetting & idle to get her to start & then fine tune her. ; ) Victor

[Bullfrog]

Uh-oh. Your most recent message has me concerned that the problem may return . . . that you may have missed something important during the inspection of the kick start system parts. I've got my fingers crossed that the problem does not return.

Ed

[Larry S]

I'm with Captain Ed. Victor, after your latest post, I think the problem may be the kick roller retainer.

Larry S

[admin]

Or the ramps on the kick shaft where the rollers ride are worn to the point that the kicker will not engage.
Paul

[dirty_rat]

I would have to agree with Paul. If the bike had one of the new improved roller holders and it looked good, I would say the shaft itself is worn to the point of slipping.

[Dale]

Seems to me that one of two scenarios occurred here. One, the Hold Snap was incorrectly installed initially, outside of its holding slot in the case, and after repeated attempts to kick it over, it slipped and would not engage anymore. Now that it is installed correctly, it should be fine. Or, it could be that everything was intially correct but the parts were worn enough to allow slippage. Then, after dis-assembly and re-assembly, the Hold Snap was not placed into its holding slot in the case on the first attempt to fix the problem.

The key is, where was the Hold Snap when the cases were first split? One thing is for sure and that is the Hold Snap can not slip out of it holding slot in the case once the engine is assembled. So if the kick starter slips again, then I think it would be likely due to worn ramps.
Dale

[viclioce]

Well, Dale, the one thing I didnt see was the position of the hold snap when first splitting the cases.

I did, however, place the roller bearings in the kick shaft gear with the bearing retainer in place, and the bearings DID lock against the ramps on the shaft like they were supposed to do! So, I'm hopeful that getting her back together will prove success! Spent the past couple of days putting up the Christmas lights. The motor is back in the frame. Need to reinstall the kick start spring & arm, put the side cases on, fill her with oil and put the seat and fuel tank back on her and see what happens!!! I'll post the results as soon as I have them. ; ) Victor

[Unomike]

Was reading this thread...wondering if things got straightened out.

[viclioce]

Well, I haven''t finished her yet. I got kidney stones and battled that for a couple of weeks. Then just before Christmas I came down with a severe bronchiole infection which took weeks to clear. In fact I'm still dealing with a slight cough.

It has also been snowing off & on for he past 2 weeks and I don't have a heated garage so it's been too cold to work on her. I'm hoping after this storm passes, (it's supposed to stop snowing tomorrow and start to warm back up) that I can get out to the garage & finish her. It's been a real drag that the weather has not permitted me to finish and that I've been fighting illnesses. I'll keep you posted! ; D Victor

[viclioce]

OK! I know I'm a bad boy for not saying anything for a great while! But in my defense I was both sick & injured! I had bronchitis for more than 3 weeks and I had to have knee surgery! Couple that with the very cold winter weather we had been having and the lack of a heated garage, I had to wait for warmer days to get out I to the garage again. Here's what I discovered.

I did get the tranny back together correctly this time. The hold snap is in its proper place and assembly is near complete! Turn out, I was having a secondary issue with the kick start arm slipping on the kick shaft! This was the feeling I was getting in the past. The bolt which tightens the kick start arm to the kick shaft was not sitting properly in the groove between the pairs of splines. So I could give it maybe one good kick and then nothing! That was the issue with the kick start. The original bolt had been cross threaded and mangled so many times by the PO, that changing this one bolt solved the mistery! YEAY!!!

It got dark before I could finish all reassembly. Pipe is on and carb is on and with a bit of WD-40 & 2000 grit paper the slide is moving through the carb again. It always seems to gum up when the bike sits. I also need some exhaust springs as I only have one and its a bit bent. My son in law took it, promising to return with something comparable in December, but has not. So I guess it will be new exhaust springs unless someone has a set they can spare.

I want to thank everyone for all heir help! It was truly frustrating trying to get to the bottom of this problem, but with all of you posting in with guidance and encouragement, I was able to figure things out. I also purchased a replacement return spring and cover for the kickshaft as the original spring was bent beyond belief!

So, an enormous THANK YOU to all the for members who contributed to this link in any way!

Now stay tuned for a new post about accessory electrics and the issues I need to resolve since the PO really butchere'd this wiring harness..... ; D Victor

[viclioce]

OK. So I have confirmed that the splines on the inside of the kick start lever are shot. They are nearly worn smooth! Also, the tap on the inside which captures the bolt is stripped.

This bike appears to have the two part, model 03 kickstart lever. Is there anyone out there who has a spare kickstart lever which will work with this model 94 bottom end? If so, can you post with price and shipping to 87507, Santa Fe , NM? Thx!

Turns out this was the problem all along. The bolt wouldn't tighten down enough to squeeze the coupler tight around the kickshaft splines. So both the tap & the splines on the coupler are toast. I could even just use the coupler portion & continue with the long part of the existing kick lever which unbolts from the shaft coupled if there is someone with a spare of these! Thanks in advance!

Man ,all that money, work and time for nearly nothing! ; D Victor

[james92691]

OK got the engine in. a 100 ACE. When the head is buttoned down the kick starter slips, sounds like grinding. The extra pressure required to kick it over seems to be too much for the kicker mechanism

[viclioce]

Check the kickstart lever and make sure it is secure and tight on the kick shaft. Mine gave me all kinds of grief and it turned out to be the splines on the kick lever were stripped out from the bolt which tightens it on the kick shaft got loose and stripped the splines on the inside of the kick start lever! ; D Victor

[Bullfrog]

Victor's advice is very good. That is the first thing to check. Things get very much more serious if the fit up of the kick starter lever to the kick starter shaft is not found to be the problem.
Ed