Points

[RoadyToady]

Hi all-
I need a little direction...
Where exactly should I lube my new ignition
Points on my Road Toad?
Also- can anyone tell me the correct torque
For the flywheel (magneto?)

Thanks-
Rich

[Zyx]

The lube, just a tiny dab, goes between the (usually reddish brown) fiber contact point and the crank eccentric that it rides on. There is probably a preferred lube for this, like some kind of synthetic goo. I used to use bearing grease because that's what I had. Just don't use so much that it flings around.

From an ancient Clymer's: flywheel nut = 170 inch pounds

[RoadyToady]

Thanks for the insight...
The points came with some lube-so I should
be good to go.
As far as the torque goes- IF I am converting
things right-that's only like 14 ft lbs.-
that seems low to me-especially how fast that
shaft is turning! I saw that figure as well...
Just to be clear- I am talking about what I
call the magneto (heavy iron piece that
has built in magnets-covers points and coils)-
Has 2 slots in it so you can check your points.
Thanks-

[Droptarotter]

That torque sounds about right......as far as I remember, and that is not a very large nut/thread. It's the taper of the crank and the key that really help retain the flywheel. Just think how much force it can take with the proper puller to remove the flywheel.

Hope that helps.

[Zyx]

14.1666 pounds (170 / 12). Also correct that the taper shaft, offering a very large frictional surface, along with the keyway, provides the grip. The nut just holds it all together. Try this: put the flywheel on, and torque to 14 ft/lbs. Then remove the nut and see if you can remove the flywheel without a puller just using your hands. Bet you can't.

[RoadyToady]

Good points! I didn't want to make a rookie
mistake
Thanks for the info- off to wrench on the Toad!

[taber hodaka]

There is danger in converting Ft pounds to inch pounds . As the ace 100 flywheel can easily crack or split at the keyway, exceeding the inch pounds can be critical. The torque for the heads is more critical, stripping the threads out of the case is not fun. I think if the manual calls for inch pounds use inch pounds. Clarence

[RoadyToady]

Thanks Clarence... I appreciate the input.
I met you at HD this year- it was a pleasure-
I ended up buying a Road Toad from Bill Morris @ HD
(you looked at it with me) I visited with your daughter
quite a lot- A real nice gal

[Bullfrog]

Clarence, I'd have to disagree about there being danger in converting in-lbs to ft-lbs. If your torque wrench ONLY indicates ft-lbs of torque then the conversion is required -- and not doing it means you have to buy or borrow another torque wrench graduated in in-lbs OR you have to go at it with just a regular wrench or ratchet and simply guess at the torque you are applying - and guessing is not good.

12 in-lbs IS 1 ft-lb of torque. (12 pounds of "pull" at the end of a 1" long wrench is the same as 1 pound of "pull" at the end of a 12" long wrench in terms of torque).

Of course it is true that you have to get the math right when doing the conversion . . . but you can look that up if you are worried about math errors.

Ed

[taber hodaka]

Ed I am not saying you are wrong but we must pass on the best recommendations to the readers . you are correct that you can calculate inch pounds to foot pounds... But when the head bolt for a 100 cc is the size of a pencil requiring 100 inch pounds of torque then I could not recommend 8.333 foot pounds this is not metal on metal this is steel screwed into aluminum. Now if the foot pound torque wrench is the old pointer type and the pointer isn't pointing at 0 then Huston we could have a problem. I have several foot pound torque wrenches that are not accurate "'old pointer's and otherwise" Nobody could dare convert and be able to trust them. Ed you did beat me in our last race but I wheelied further than you. The best and highest of regards Clarence

[Bullfrog]

Ah, a hot summer afternoon! Perfect to come inside and debate with friends!

I'd guess that plus or minus 10% on published torque specifications for actual applied torque in the workshop is a reasonable expectation for projects this side of NASCAR and NASA. In which case 100 in-lbs could range from 90 in-lbs to 110 in-lbs -- and the same specification stated in ft-lbs could range from7.5 ft-lbs to 9.2 ft-lbs. I'm thinking that the average Hodaka mechanic ought to be able to take a shot at hitting 8.3 ft-lbs and be able to reliably keep the applied torque somewhere pretty close to 8.3 - 8.5 - which would be pretty close to right on. And hitting a "window" of something between 7.5 and 9.2 shouldn't be too hard at all.

So I come back to -- if you only have a torque-wrench calibrated in ft-lbs, use it. It will be wayeeeeee more accurate than guessing about the amount of "pull" you are applying to your 9 inch long ratchet handle (and are you applying that unquantified force at 9 inches from the nut, or 7 inches from the nut or 5 inches from the nut when you grab that ratchet handle in your hand?) An unknown force applied to an unknown lever arm length produces an unknown - and non-repeatable - torque. Not good.

So I still think using ft-lb specifications if necessary is better for our readers.

As for the Grandpa's Race at Hodaka Days . . . if we get a chance to do it again . . . I'd give even odds that I might have just as, um, interesting a start as you did! Don't go thinking that you have a solitary choke hold on goofed up starts! (A few years ago at Hodaka Days, I was still on the line when the first place rider was over half way to the 1st turn!)

Bye for now,
Ed

[Zyx]

I agree with Ed. Accuracy of the tool aside, math is math. Inch pounds torque and foot pound torque are the same measure stated differently. This is like using decimal measures, i.e. 2 meters can also be stated as 2000mm. Doesn't change a thing.

As for accuracy of the tool, most inexpensive store-bought torque wrenches are only modestly accurate. I would not buy one that has a stated accuracy of +/- 10%. That isn't a tool, it just wants you to think it is. Most quality tool are a bit more expensive than what you might find at Harbor Freight, and should have accuracy in the 1 to 2% range, not ten percent. When I was wrenching regularly, I could do better than give or take ten percent with a hand wrench. As far as getting more "accuracy" with an inch pound wrench versus a foot pound wrench of the same stated accuracy, again, math is math. Example: 10% of 14.1666 foot pounds is 1.4666 foot pounds, which suggests that you will get something like between 13 and 15 foot pounds as a result with a wrench of 10% accuracy when aiming for 14.16. Using an inch pound wrench of the same accuracy, you aim for 170 inch pounds, ten percent of which is 17 inch pounds, which converted to foot pounds is the same 1.4666 as you would get with the other wrench. Seventeen inch pounds of plus or minus variation gets you the same result as ten percent of 14.1666 foot pounds. The only difference I see is the possible induced variable in that you can't set a wrench for fractional inches or fractional feet. However, the fraction of a pound is within tolerance to start with, the flywheel in this case won't care and won't fall off, the threads won't strip, so I see no problem.

Also depends on whether the torque wrench is a bar wrench or a click slip wrench. I have both, but do not trust myself with the deflecting pointer of the bar wrench, and never did. I believe it takes a bit more technique to use the pointer style well, like having clean lubed threads, a smooth stroke, not too slow, and stopping when the pointer hits the mark, and no second pulls or second guesses because once the nut has stopped at or near working torque, you can reapply a bar wrench and slowly, slowly bend the damn thing all over the place, because the break-free force on a torqued nut exceeds the static torque that it had when it came to rest. The click-type are usually more forgiving to us older guys who don't have the style we once did, are more repeatable, and generally idiot proof. The break force needed to exceed the click setting is far lower than the force needed to break a torqued nut free in either direction, and thus gives more repeatable results, even in the dark: the break force to overcome the click setting is within and built into that 1 or 2 percent while with a bar wrench, you have to interpret the reading with your mark one eyeball. You can create a two percent error with a bar wrench just by holding your head differently every time.

Depending on the manufacturer, good click style wrenches are usually quite accurate, which means that if you set it for 100 foot pounds, that's what you get. They are also usually more precise, which means you get the same result time after time -- repeatable results. Personally, I find the click-type more precision in nature due because as long as you are holding the handle right, you can't induce error to the degree you can with the old bent bar, analog type, which I do not consider to be a precision tool in other than the hands of an expert.

So I would agree with the idea that it makes little difference whether you convert inches to feet or vice versa, and would further suggest that we should all have tools with accuracy much better than the odd ten percent. If you have a good, accurate foot pound tool that is calibrated as low as 14 foot pounds, use it. Mine isn't, by the way, and reads only as low as 20 foot pounds. My bar type reads from zero, but frankly I would rather set the flywheel nut by hand without a torque wrench than try to interpret the result using my old bar type foot pound wrench that close to zero.

Which brings up the other side of the argument: if one is going to be working on a machine regularly which requires torque results in the 250 inch pound range and down, it is a good idea to invest in an inch pound wrench and not have to convert anything. And if I haven't made the point yet, a torque wrench is one place where spending money is important. Buy a good one, or put another way, buy the best tool you can afford.

[junker2k]

When I pull the flywheel to change or adjust my points I all so put a little
grease on the crank shaft where the flywheel rides. It makes it much easer
to remove the flywheel next time.
Jack K

[Bullfrog]

Oh boy! I'll bet that comment generates some posts.

Ed

[taber hodaka]

Grease helps the flywheel come loose and off when you want it to and also when you don't want it to.. Not recommended Clarence

[Zyx]

Since the function of the taper shaft is to generate friction between shaft and flywheel, I would agree not to lube it. I don't think I have ever seen a taper shaft rust shut because the fit is so tight. Even the tapered axle shafts on the rear of my '68 Kaiser were clean when I took them apart for the first time in nearly 40 years. I would be afraid that the grease on the taper might allow the flywheel to slip/rotate back and forth against the keyway and eventually shear the key. At the least, that would bring you to a stop.

[junker2k]

I thought it might Ed, but I have been doing it for 48 years on Hodaka's and other bikes.
When I ran total loss ignition I would not expect it to slip but now that I run over 3.5 lbs
added weight to the fly wheel and have not had any problems. I have seen the flywheel
froze on the crank. When you put two pieces of metal together and add moisture, over
time you will have a hell of a time getting it off. I lube it and it works for me, enough said.
Jack