Clutch issues....

[dirty_rat]

Vic,

The difference in the cages themselves are as follows.

The model 92 cage is approx. 21mm thick
The model 95 cage is approx. 25mm thick.

[viclioce]

Thanks! Well I think that helps me immensely!!! Looks like Ed’s guess that it may be the wrong clutch cage might be correct.

As soon as I can work with my left hand, I will pull the current clutch, find another which is an Ace clutch, blueprint that cage & reassemble from there. Finally, I’m getting to the bottom of this. Thanks very much for the dimensions & the visuals! Victor

[dirty_rat]

You can use either cage with your clutch setup. If you use the 95 cage, you must use 5 fiber plates and 4 steel, if you use the 92 cage you must use 4 fiber plates and 3 steel plates. Also, make sure you use the correct screws. The screws for the 92 cage are 35mm long and the screws for the 95 cage are 40mm long. See attached photo.

[viclioce]

Great additional info. Differences in screw lengths is something I didn’t know about, but it makes sense! I can see how using parts assumed to be fore one model for a model requiring different parts can quickly add up to a used parts nightmare conglomeration. Sometimes, having boxes of parts assumed to be the same is more of a disadvantage than only having 1 bike with one set of parts. Victor

[olddogs]

Great clutch info. The pictures really help tell the story. Perfect for all the beginners doing clutch assemblies from a basket full of misc. parts. Which is exactly the way many surviving Hodakas enter the world now days.

[viclioce]

OldDogs! My Ace B fits that description completely! I had purchased the bike for $400. Was given the roller, without a seat pan & a pipe, and 3 boxes with parts!

The motor I started with was the one on the left in the 3rd box. No pinion gear, bushing, clutch rotor gear, thrust washer or clutch. The motor on the right, with the cylinder had a seized piston and an .080 over bore!!! Since I couldn’t get the cylinder off the one on the right, the one on the left became the default.

The clutch pack, clutch rotor gear, pinion gear & bushing and thrust washer all came from the motor on the right. But the discs in this clutch were worn down below the original grooves.

I had started with this clutch pack, but moved on to trying others which appeared to be in better shape. I probably still have 4 maybe 5 clutches, some which are Ace & some which are either Wombat, Combat Wombat, possibly a Road Toad, and a possible Who Knows clutch, all which came from the same seller/owner.

So if I had stuck to the clutch pack on the motor to the right, and rebuilt from there, I probably wouldn’t have had these confusing experiences. I just kept trying clutches, hoping I would come across a good, usable but used one and move on from there. But, I also wouldn’t have had this great clutch learning experience from kind folks here!

Now, at least, I can sort them by thickness into 100 & 125 clutches. I will confirm an Ace clutch cage, with 4 discs & 3 plates, a correct thrust washer, a correct shim for the clutch rotor gear,(something Lee Fabry told me about in a phone call) and the correct clutch disc and correct amount of spacers to give 3/32” of free play in the case lever. Thanks all!!! Victor

[viclioce]

OK. I took the Ace B clutch out today. Here’s what I found measurement wise....

1. The cage is a little more than 20 mm in thickness.
2. Has single large springs, spring length is typically 16.63mm.
3. 4 new clutch friction discs & 3 new metal clutch plates, stacked disc, plate, disc, plate, disc, plate, disc.
4. Clutch screws are 31mm long not 35 or 40mm.
5. Clutch hub gear does not reach the last disc on the clutch hub. Seems like the wrong clutch hub.
6. Rear clutch cage cover has 7 holes instead of 2. Part # 934008 ISO Replaced with a rear clutch cage cover which was part #934008. (no ISO)

Here’s what I did. The clutch hub appeared to be the wrong depth. Took apart a 2nd clutch and grabbed a hub with the center the correct height, if I’m saying that correctly.

Re-stacked the disc and plate assembly, starting & ending with a friction disc, inside the clutch cage, centered on top of the clutch hub gear. Assembled with the double springs found inside this second clutch. Used the clutch hub with the shorter center. Installed & tightened the 31mm screws and installed safety wire.

I Installed clutch back on the crank with the proper thrust washer, oiler bushing & pinion gear, and the spacer inside the clutch hub gear, along with the correct lock washer and clutch nut. I used approximately .023 in spacers behind the clutch disc. Seemed a bit long in the free play department, but close.

But, I get Little or no pull at the lever. This bike/clutch is going to be the death of me.......... Victor

[Dale]

Seems that you still have a mixture of parts that are not correct together.

My notes show that 31mm screws are for models 99, 01, 02 and 82. They would also be M5x.8 pitch which are for ISO clutch covers. If you switched clutch covers from ISO to non-ISO then how did you use the same screws?

A B or B+ clutch should require 34ish mm screws.

My suggestion would be to take apart a good working clutch and compare/match up all parts. I say this believing that you also have a B+ right???
Dale

[viclioce]

Dale. It’s an Ace B motor based on the engine and frame serial numbers, more so the frame.
I have an Ace clutch. Took a screw from it and it also measured 31mm.

Maybe the screws have been compressing the pack too tightly together? I’ll drain it again tomorrow and see if I can use the clutch I was using for parts & put the new plates & discs in it. I already took the clutch hub and rear cover from this unit.

The only thing I didn’t like was the slotted screws instead of Phillips. But if those are the correct length I’ll try putting that clutch back together with the slotted screws.

I never realized clutch identification could be such a difficult thing to process... Victor

Dale. Now I understand what you’re saying. Compare these clutch parts to the clutch parts for my B+ which is working just fine.

Last resort stuff. I have a complete Ace clutch, into which I can place these new plates & discs and everything else will be original to that clutch. I’ll let you know tomorrow. Man, I’m tired of draining & refilling oil; and fitting spacers; and pulling clutch side covers; and...and...and...

But Dale. I greatly appreciate your sticking through this with me. Sometimes it’s just easier communicating with just one person! Thank you!

[ossa95d]

Vic, with regard to draining and filling the gear oil over and over, if you lay the bike on it's left side you can remove the clutch cover and clutch without draining the oil. Just trying to streamline your process a little.

[viclioce]

Yeah. I’m aware of that procedure. However, due to my “Senior back problems” I chose not to go that route.

My spine is about 90% fused due to osteophyte bridging, and bending over is a real pain for me, literally. I can only bend over at the hips. So I use my Harbor Freight lift to raise the bike, so I don’t have to bend over.

It’s also not practical to lay the bike on its side on a lift. Plus it tends to make the carb unhappy and fuel can weep out of the gas cap breather. So no laying the bike on its left side for me.

Maybe if it was an emergency out in the woods or desert, but not in a controlled situation like up on the lift. But thanks! This particular discussion has happened before. Victor

[dirty_rat]

I think the screws you are using are too short if they measure out at 31mm. Should be close to 35mm. Also, if you don't put any oil into the transmission until you know all is well, will keep you from having to drain it all the time. The clutch will work (on a non-running engine) without any oil in the transmission. Just don't run it that way.

[viclioce]

That’s my suspicion too! In fact it’s probably been the 31mm screws all along. Probably clamping the clutch down too tightly on the springs. I’ll know soon enough.... Victor

[taber hodaka]

I don't think the screws could be tightening it down too tight?? ---------- Clarence

[Bullfrog]

The cage "sets" the overall depth/thickness of the clutch assembly. If the screws are the proper length to match the cage, they will extend through far enough for inserting the safety wire. If too short, safety wiring will not be possible. If too long, they'll just appear to be too long (and probably make contact with cover when it is installed).
Ed

[viclioce]

The cage "sets" the overall depth/thickness of the clutch assembly. If the screws are the proper length to match the cage, they will extend through far enough for inserting the safety wire. If too short, safety wiring will not be possible. If too long, they'll just appear to be too long (and probably make contact with cover when it is installed).
Ed

Well apparently not. Since there are springs involved inside the clutch cage, 31mm screws will reach the rear clutch cover & thread into the holes. The difference in that 4mm is how easily, or not, the holes in the screws reach through to the front cover and the safety wire holes in the screws stick out and allow for the safety wire to pass through.

I believe this has been the issue all along. The 31mm screws will thread thru and allow the holes for the safety wire to be accessed. However, I’ll appears that the 4mm difference compresses the springs so tightly that the clutch plates/discs can not be separated by the activating of the clutch case lever.

I’m about to head out to my garage now, and will be removing the clutch again, and assembling a complete Ace clutch assembly with the new clutch pack and some older, linger Ace 35mm screws.

If this allows the clutch to work properly, I will report back that my conclusion that it was the screws being 31mm instead 35mm. Hopefully, this cures the problem once & for all. Victor

[Bullfrog]

I think you are going to find that the head of the screw comes tight on a part which clamps down on one side of the cage - and the threaded end of the screw pulls another part tight to the other side of the cage. The cage dictates how far apart those two parts will be - screw length won't change that.

Ed

[viclioce]

I think you are going to find that the head of the screw comes tight on a part which clamps down on one side of the cage - and the threaded end of the screw pulls another part tight to the other side of the cage. The cage dictates how far apart those two parts will be - screw length won't change that.

Ed

Well, what I DID discover is that a clutch cage which requires 35mm screws can be pulled together by 31mm screws and still expose the holes in the screw for safety wire. There’s more than 4mm of compression in those clutch springs.

The real difference appears to be that the 31mm screws leave no room for expansion between the discs & plates, and THAT has been my problem/issue all along. FWIW....

Screw length will determine if the plates have too much, just enough or not enough movement. Victor

[taber hodaka]

Screw length has nothing to do with it. The cage and proper pieces will dictate the spaces. You must start with proper pieces including screws for a specific clutch. ------------ Clarence

[viclioce]

My point exactly Clarence! Since I was using the incorrect, too short length screw, the clutch pack was being pressed together and not at all giving me any clutch release. I’m going to change the screw length and use the new clutch pack with an existing & correct Ace clutch with 35mm screws. Victor

[taber hodaka]

I think your statement "screw length will determine if the plates have too much, just enough or not enough movement" is incorrect and misleading. The clutch cage has three parts plus screws. It consists of a clutch cage cover, clutch cage and clutch cover. Bolted tight together the three piece's have one thickness. The proper screw when tight protrudes through just enough to install the safety wire. Screw length has no bearing on internal clutch movement. ----Clarence or am I missing something?

[matt glascock]

I'm not even sure, regardless of the screw length, if you could tighten the clutch pack screws enough to "fuse" the discs and plates. I think the heads would snap off if you didn't strip the screw first.

[Bullfrog]

Vic, I'm sorry that it seems to harden your heart when I offer information to help you, but it is NOT the screw length which is causing your problem. I wish I could tell you exactly what IS causing the problem - but I can't.

If you reject all the real possibilities of what is causing the problem and focus only on the length of the screws, it will take a really long time to find the problem.

The photo below illustrates the situation in a simplified way. The clutch cage in the photo is sitting on a tablet back cut-out of one the "clutch covers" - let's say it is #934008 with the spring pockets from a Combat Wombat. Sitting on top of the clutch cage is a tablet back cut-out representing #924005 (also Combat Wombat). The three wood screws represent varying length screws which might be used to assemble the clutch. Regardless of which length screw you choose to assemble the clutch -- the distance between the two tablet back cut-outs will not change. That distance is "fixed" by the clutch cage.

Actual possiblities of the cause of the problem you are experiencing include:
-- ANY item placed between the two covers represented by the tablet back cut-outs (number of steel plates, thickness of plates - there were two thicknesses over the years, number of friction disks, the seven clutch springs)
-- Items outside of the clutch assembly can have an effect (heavy/thick thrust washer, clutch bushing, shim stack, clutch disc/throw-out bearing assy -- there are three types of these I think, length of clutch pressure piece)

I'd recommend looking at those things . . . because it is not the screw lengths.

Ed
PS: You know what I want to say here, but I'm starting to figure out it just pi_ _es you off, so I won't.

[viclioce]

Ed. I’m not pissed. I’m trying to eliminate possibilities. I appreciate everyone’s help and guidance. It’s why I come here.

I have eliminated everything except the screws. I’ve been told a std Ace clutch has 35mm screws in it. All other parts being the same, the only thing not consistent with an Ace 100 clutch pack is the 31mm screws. The thrust washer is from an Ace 100. The oil bushing, the pinion gear and the clutch gear and clutch hub are all from an Ace 100. The clutch plates & friction discs are a brand new set from Terry, for an Ace 100 clutch. The clutch cage IS from an Ace 100. Confirmed by measurement.

The screws are 31mm and in order to expose the safety wire holes I was having to place the clutch cage in my vice and compress the springs in order to tighten the screws down enough for the holes to be exposed. This is why I believe the screws are effecting the operation of the clutch.

My Uncle passed away and we had the funeral today. It was a long and arduous day. I may get to it tomorrow, if I feel up to working on the clutch.

You were correct about the problem with the Combat Wombat clutch issue. However, when you’ve eliminated all but one item in the assembly, and, the one item is too short for the specifications, Logic says it should be eliminated before moving on. That’s what I’m about to do.

And now, new information is given on the clutch throw out bearing length. So kindly tell me which clutch throw out bearing length is the correct one for an Ace B motor. I have several throw out bearing pieces. Victor

[Bullfrog]

So, I perused the parts lists for a while . . .

Vic, you have a Road Toad clutch cage (994004) which is supposed to go together with 2 steel plates and 3 friction disks -- but you have put 3 steel plates and 4 friction disks in it. The Road Toad clutch will not accept an ACE 100 clutch pack.

The Road Toad uses 31mm screws (994009).

Ed
PS: Slow down. You'll go faster.
PPS: Did I mention, it's not the screws?