Clutch issues....

[viclioce]

Back to the Ace B with questions.

I was frustrated extremely (and still am) by this clutch.

The outer cover appeared to have fitment issues with the clutch disc. So, I changed the cover and found 1 of 4 clutch discs which seems to fit properly.

This is now a rebuilt, blue printed clutch with .11 total in spacers. A .05 & 2 & .03 spacers. I believe I have 3/32”, or very close to it, in free space movement in the case lever. Yet, the clutch still does not fully engage and slips when under load of any kind.

I have 3 new plates & 4 new discs in a later, Phillips screw Ace clutch case. The clutch disc is the style which has the dished outer surface rather than the smooth slightly convex surface.

I would appreciate any advice which can be given to help me get to the bottom of this clutch issue. I’ve drained the oil and pulled this motor out of the frame so many times now that I’ve lost track. I don’t know if the issue is with the case, the lever on the case or something I’m just not catching.

But it is the only thing keeping the bike from being rideable. Thanks in advance for any assistance with this troublesome issue. Victor

[Al Harpster]

Couple of long shots:

Recheck that you have the correct springs & perhaps measure their length to see if length is in the ballpark as specified in The Book.

The big gear looking thing and the steel plates Love to hang up in the "cage". Filing off any sharp edges is a really good idea.

If the cage has some time on it you might recheck those chatter marks on the Male V Shaped Guides. I've painted these with magic marker before filing them to see that I get a Clean Up. It's a load of filing. Takes at least half an hour. Probably an hour with sanity breaks.

Before I crank down on the Phillips screws I put the clutch assembly on the crank spline with the bushing & pinion in place to assure things are lined up. Then I tighten the 7 screws.

If you have a small press or even a vise you can test the clutch package before you install to assure it's springing in and out without binding. It should compress & extend freely.

I can post a pic of this Test set up if you like.

Me, I really don't have much good to say about assembling these things. Compared to the Suzuki A100 I have, they are a pain.

[Bullfrog]

I'm too far behind on stuff to research a couple of thoughts right now - so I'll just throw out my 1st SWAG . . . and let you research it. Do you perhaps have a clutch cage from a model which used more friction disks and steel plates than your model calls for? (ie, clutch pack "thinner" than cage requires).

And as already mentioned, check the spring lengths.
Ed

[viclioce]

Springs came from the cage. Cage had 4 discs & 3 plates in it and was rebuilt with same. Springs are also single springs. How do I know if it’s supposed to have double springs in it? Did they change to single springs when they changed to Phillips acres for the cage? Also the cage was filed as in the clutch blue print article. I’ve done 3 of these already. It’s a bloody confusion why it won’t work. I’m tempted to pull another used, complete, but not worn clutch pack and throw it on to see if it makes ANY difference. If it doesn’t, then at least that rules out the clutch pack itself. Victor

[Bullfrog]

Don't ever assume that what you found inside the engine is what the factory put there. It has been a loooooong time since that machine was factory original.
Ed

[viclioce]

No assumptions made. But, I have to continue to trouble shoot...... Victor

[Al Harpster]

Everything I "Think" I know from The Hodaka Workshop Manual says the B clutch has inner & outer springs.

I've just "refreshed" two of these clutches.

If you like, send yours to me & I'll go through it no charge.

To can email me for my address.

These can go via USPS in the small priority mail size box.

[Dale]

Is this clutch pack the same one that you posted about back in March? The subject was "Clutch Question"?

[viclioce]

Yes but the outer clutch casing has been replaced. New clutch plates(3) & discs(4) inside, clutch has been blue printed, 7 single springs, 7 Phillips screws, dished clutch disc, currently has only .11 in spacers, giving me 3/32” of Clutch Free play, but still will not fully engage & slips under any load. Only thing I haven’t tried yet is a different shifter case, or an entirely different Used but functional clutch pac. Victor

[Bullfrog]

OK, I slowed down and checked what should be in an Ace100B clutch, in the hope you'll go faster.

The Illustrated Parts Lists say the 100B clutch should have 4 friction disks and 3 steel plates and 14 clutch springs.

And the parts lists say the Combat Wombat clutch should have 5 friction disks and 4 steel plates and 14 springs.

Is it possible that you have a Combat Wombat clutch cage (sized for 5 and 4) but have only a 100B clutch pack (4 and 3)?

And the springs you have don't seem to be a match for what the factory installed in either clutch.

Ed

[Dale]

The reason that I asked if this was the same clutch pack is that in your original post you stated that the clutch was found to have 5 discs and 4 plates. So things were just not adding up...

Regarding the use of single springs, there are some Ace 100 clutch packs that utilized them. You can tell by the size of the recessed holes in both the plate and the hub. Measure them. 9mm = single springs. 11mm = Double springs. The parts lists don't show this.

What is the overall length of of the clutch screws?
What is the depth of the cage?
What is the thickness of the discs? These vary between models.
What is the thickness of the plates? These also vary between models.

Finally, I can't picture what you mean when you describe the different discs that you have. Please post pictures of them.

[taber hodaka]

Victor manuals should show everything, if you don't have one check out Terry's website. Ace 100 clutch springs were the outer single springs up to engine P27908 and then they recommended adding inner spring 924017. The ace 100 was 4 clutch disc 904006 and 3 plates 904007. The model 92a, 92B, 92B+, 93, 93A, 93B , used the same 4 clutch disc 934006 and 3 clutch plate 934007. The ace 90 used 6 springs 3 clutch disc 904006 and two clutch plates 904007. -----Clarence*** Thanks guys I like to leave rooom for improvement. ?? correct me when I am wrong.

[Dale]

Victor manuals should show everything, if you don't have one check out Terry's website. Ace 100 clutch springs were the outer springs up to engine P27908 and they recommended adding inner spring 924017. The ace 100 was 4 clutch plates 904007 and 3 disc 904006. The model 92a, 92B, 92B+, 94 and model 95 used the 4 clutch plates 934007 and 3 clutch disc 934006. The ace 90 used 6 springs 3 clutch disc 904006 and two clutch plates 904007. -----Clarence

Clarence, I think you reversed the numbers on quantify of plates vs discs? Shouldn't it be 3 plates and 4 discs?

[viclioce]

Dale is correct. 3 clutch plates, 4 discs. Starting & ending with a disc.

[Bullfrog]

Yee Haa! . . . and now let's add semantics to the issue . . .

I'm pretty sure that accepted practice would be to "short hand" friction disks as "disks"

and

steel plates as "plates"

100B had 4 (friction) disks and 3 (steel) plates
CW had 5 (friction) disks and 4 (steel) plates

Ed
PS: Things are starting to pretty strongly indicate that you have a CW cage with a 100B clutch pack (with great potential for other mis-matched components)

[taber hodaka]

You are all correct. I corrected my post but I do not know how to bring it down. My intent was for Victor to look at the parts list that show and list the number of disks and plates although they spell disk, disc? the Hodaka Parts, owners parts list schematic show the combat to use the same springs as the ace 100A, B, B+, Super rats and combat wombats using the same springs outer 934011 and inner 934017. Clarence

[viclioce]

Thanks for the update Clarence! Victor

[taber hodaka]

You are welcome Victor. Clarence

[viclioce]

So you know, I constantly refer to the “electronic parts lists.” I have both the expanded Ace 90, Ace 100, Ace B, 100MX manual as well as the Wombat manual, and the parts lists for the Wombat, Toad & 03 Wombat. I tend to use the “iPhone Parts List” the most because my Ace Manual is coming apart and I don’t have a binder which fits it.

[viclioce]

It was stated earlier that the clutch cage could be from a Model 95. I don’t know how this could happen, but I’m willing to investigate the possibility.

Can someone give me dimensional information on the differences between a 92 cage & and a 95 cage. Since they take the same size clutch plates & discs, I can only assume the difference between the 2 is height of the cage. There are weight differences indicated on Terry’s web site but not dimensions. So any help with the dimensional differences would be greatly appreciated.

If this is, indeed, a 94 or 95 cage, it would be nice to know. I still have other clutch cages to choose from. But knowing dimensional differences will help with current and future rebuilds. Victor

[taber hodaka]

Show us a picture it will probably tell. --------------Clarence

[viclioce]

Well I can’t do that for awhile! I still have 14 stitches in my hand. It will be a few weeks yet before I’m back to work on either clutch. I. I can show you pics of my hand, but I dont think most people want to see my cut up finger and stitches...... Victor

[MTrat]

No doubt, the best recovery therapy for that hand will eventually be repeated squeezing of the levers on Hodaka handlebars while viewing interesting territory.

[viclioce]

Gosh yes. Both my dirt bikes & my road bikes.

The first track day was a failure so that needs to happen again. And we still haven’t made it out to Diablo Canyon with the bikes.... Victor

[dirty_rat]

Vic,

Here are pictures of the difference between the model 92 clutch and the 95 clutch. The 92 clutch measures approx. 29mm thick and the 95 clutch measures approx. 34mm.