Slow going off the line

[Hydraulic Jack]

PS: Hydraulic . . . deburring the clutch hub is mentioned in the Blue Printing article (with photo.)

Deburring, yes. But unless I missed something, you don't talk about radiusing the rotor teeth corresponding with the screws, as is shown with the drive plates. I was suggesting that if the plates should be filed with a quarter inch file to eliminate possible contact with the screws, why not the rotor which has the same profile as the drive plates?

[Hydraulic Jack]

The clutch should not move in and out with the crank shaft. --------------Clarence

Well, actually the clutch is bolted to the crankshaft with a fair amount of torque, so I would conclude that the clutch actually would move sideways with the crank if there is play in the crank. Maybe there shouldn't be any sideplay that a person can find with their hands or see with the eye, but the clutch pretty much does have to track sideplay in the crank. The natural ability of the clutch body to move away from contact with the rotor to release the clutch is something else entirely. Most folks will find it hard to do to compress the clutch springs by hand. So just shaking the clutch by hand, you will find the clutch goes where the crankshaft goes.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Sparky,

Your videos were helpful. In the first I didn't hear any grinding, so not sure what you are hearing. Maybe my sound system isn't up to the task.

The clutch throw out bearing is normal. The wobble you see happens because the bearing is only lightly captured when not under pressure. In use, the button on the shaft will be pressed down very strongly by the thrust piece and only then will the bearing really be doing anything. Don't worry about the shake in the stem. The stem only centers the piece. I didn't see clearly that you pressed down while turning the stem, but what I saw looked normal and I didn't hear anything gritty.

How much sideplay is allowable between the bearing piece and the clutch body is anyone's guess. I don't think there was ever a dimension stated for that, and I doubt yours is out of spec. Mine has a few thousandths of play side to side and doesn't make noise, so that's probably okay too.

The small amount of shake in the crank may well be more than allowable. I have exactly zero detectable endplay on my crank on two separate engines sitting here in the shop. No end shake, no run out. Not that can be seen or felt anyway. I simply can not shake the crank or clutch. Not in and out, not up and down. Nada. So if you can shake your clutch around by hand, and assuming it was bolted down to spec when you did that, I would say the crank bearings are out of spec, or something is missing in the build such as the thrust washer between the crank bearing and the clutch bushing and primary gear -- something that lets the clutch float a bit where it should be under a torqued load. Recheck the assembly list against the exploded diagram. The very first piece that goes on the clutch side crankshaft during clutch reassembly is a heavy thrust washer. The washer under the clutch nut should bottom on the clutch and not on the crank shaft splines.

[taber hodaka]

The clutch side rests up against the bearing and is torqued against it and should not have side play, the flywheel side floats. There should be no in and out side play in the crank when the clutch is torqued. There should not be any up and down play in the crank. The thrust washer is about .083 thick. the crankshaft should have just noticeable side play before you torque the clutch ------------Clarence "Note there are two thrust washers on the clutch side one thick one thin".

[Hydraulic Jack]

Thoughts concerning the clutch thrust washers and pressure piece shims:

It is pretty easy to confuse the washers that go into the clutch build. Clarence is right that there are two thrust washers, and that they are not the same size. I can't find a ready reference regarding thicknesses or which goes in first, but I believe Clarence is also right that the thicker one goes against the bearing, and the thinner one goes inside the clutch gear against the bushing. Both of these washers are what I would think of as thicker than your average washer. Also, the order in which all these parts go together makes a difference in how the internal components relate to each other. Leaving out either of the washers will place the clutch assembly closer to the engine case and farther away from the clutch cover, which in turn would change the amount of shim needed to set the clutch arm free play. Leaving one out could also cause the clutch retaining nut to bottom on the crank shaft before placing pressure on the clutch rotor, which would cause the clutch to wobble on the shaft. That would be bad and I suppose it could cause a lot of noise with the clutch lever pulled in.

Anyway, there are three washers in the clutch side assembly. A thrust washer against the crank bearing, a thrust washer between the clutch bushing and the rotor, and a lock washer under the nut. You can verify that you have put all these washers in proper place without disassembling the clutch pack itself. Just remove the left hand thread nut and slip all the parts off the shaft.

I played with the washers and shims just to get a sense of how leaving one out affects the assembly, and I find that leaving any of the two thrust washers out places the clutch assembly very close to the primary gear, opening the gap between the clutch and the cover. Also moving the thinner thrust washer from behind the rotor to in front of the rotor also changed the shim stack height by a couple of millimeters, and although it will go together this way, and torque down as needed, it shifts the clutch away from the cover a lot, and it isn't right.

Bottom line, be careful to verify that you have all the right parts in their proper place. The clutch assembly will go together in two or three ways that look right, but only one of those ways is right. If that isn't sufficiently confusing, let me know.

[sparkyj]

I think the manual refers to the 2 washers as Inner Clutch thrust washer and outer Clutch thrust washer.

i remember seeing both and I remember placing the Inner washer against the main bearing. Now the thinner washer must have been stuck to the clutch hub because, in my minds eye, I don't recall noticing it going back in. And there are no left overs in the try! (wife cookie sheet, ....argh!. Busted).
Pretty sure it is there, but ave to check now.

Ironically the Ace 100 (not 100B) addendum does not show a picture of the rotor gear cluster, so I assume it would be similar to the ace 90.

Anyway, may have to open it up again.
Q: what does a squashed pinion bearing act/sound like?

When I got the bike, it did not have a Magneto side cover. I found a complete Ace 100 cover with the shifter setup.
Wondering if something could be pushing through and making a weird contact on that side now. Or if a gear index is off. Not sure how this works yet but will be more enlightened when this is resolved. Thank to all of you for your attentive help. What a great group.

dc

[go_hercules]

I just discovered this thread and read the whole thing. I am just wondering if the throw out disk bearing noise is just "normal" for Hodakas. My Dirt Squirt makes a rattling sound when the clutch is disengaged. I have only seen in person about three other Hodakas and they all made a similar rattling sound. If an experienced Hodaka guru heard the OP's bike, or mine, in person they might say "oh that is normal". Is that possible, or is a correctly functioning Hodaka clutch pretty much silent when disengaged???

[matt glascock]

Hi Sparky, If you are referring to the pinion bushing, a mushroomed condition of that bushing gave me the "grawnch" sound on clutch disengagement on a 94 Wombat pre-clutch rebuild. Also, be sure the oil grooves open to the motor side. Tried it the other way - briefly. Not so good.

PS Love the cookie sheet appropriation. I paid dues for similar use of muffin tin. Oopsies...

[Hydraulic Jack]

If the pinion bushing has been over-tightened it won't feel right when you push the bushing into the pinion gear during installation or if you test fit the pieces before hand. Instead of smooth and slippery it will be sticky or may simply stick in place. The bushing will also likely have serious scars on it from metal to metal contact. What it acts like in use is a sticky clutch. It would be hard to shift gears and might be hard to keep running at an idle in gear with the clutch held in. I suppose it could squawk when you pull the clutch.

Are all Hodaka rattley when the clutch is pulled? No. Not sure I would call them perfectly silent, but I wouldn't want to hear a rattle noise. I usually hear a slight whine if anything, but no rattles, clanks, or other hard metal noise.

Sparky, whether you have a mushroomed bushing or washers missing or out of place, either way you will have to pull the assembly. By now you should have this procedure down cold.

The implication attending a mushroomed bushing is an over-torqued clutch nut. Always use a torque wrench with the correct calibration range. If you are worried about nuts coming off, which they usually don't, use some locktite. You can even use locktite on the clutch rotor splines. It makes things a bit tougher to take apart, but will eliminate loose nuts.

[go_hercules]

Dang, it's not supposed to rattle. Maybe I should pull mine apart and follow along since now is a good time to learn. You guys were saying that the throw out bearing was a possibility to Sparky's noise, but since it is under pressure seems it likely isn't. And if the crank bearings are okay, what the heck else is free to move, thus making noise. I'm sure I need to re-read this whole thing but just trying to visualize what is freed up when clutch is disengaged. Seems like the noise would be easy to find since there just aren't that many parts. But sometimes the little things take forever to put your finger on.

And Sparky, I watched your videos. The one where you were turning the clutch pack by hand, it seems that you could hear a little clanking, or rattling. At 14 seconds into the video titled clutch inspection, I think I hear the rattling noise.

[sparkyj]

https://youtu.be/ugp52-pEtfc
OK check out at 5 seconds when you can just see the clutch lever move in the foreground, the gear box is farting.
Sorry best analogy I could think of at the moment.
It a puffy gear-y grind like a ratcheting sound

[Bullfrog]

A couple of points . . . 1) in the 4th video, about 28 seconds or so in . . . we could hear clunks and mayhaps even see movement of the clutch as you pulled up on it. You even commented " . . . a little bit of movement there." When you grab the clutch by hand and pull straight up on it (like you did in the video) NOTHING should move until the forces applied are large enough for you to be moving the whole bike. In that scenario, the clutch should NOT move relative to the crank unless the nut is loose. The clutch and the crank should behave as a single piece - so if the clutch moves up, the crank should move with it. EXCEPT . . . since the clutch nut is presumed to be tight and that "tightness" pulls the crank tight to the inside of the main bearing and clutch tight to the outside of the main bearing . . . we now have a situation where the crank should only move up IF the bearing has some kind of slop which allows it to move up. (Which sort of seems like the situation you have.) If the bearing was good (no slop), in order for the crank/clutch assy to move up, the main bearing would also have to move up - and since the bearing is supposed to be rigidly installed in the engine case, the engine case would also have to move up . . . and (gasp) since the engine case is bolted in the frame, the frame would have to move up too! Since the frame/case assy didn't lift off the ground . . . but the clutch/crank assy DID appear to lift up (and clanked?) . . . it appears to me that you have a main bearing problem. Which will require "splitting the cases" for bearing and seal replacement.

2) On your testing of the clutch disk (throw out bearing), the flopping of things around didn't tell me anything. What we needed to know was . . . if you press on the center of the button and rotate it - does it "feel" and sound good. (i.e. is it a good ball bearing?) Those are the forces involved when you pull in the clutch lever - pressure is applied and things are turning.

Finally, if you lost more oil than a few drops dripping from the clutch cover (and you did), then there is another significant problem. I tend to agree with the suggestion that your counter-shaft seal is baaaaaad. But you can fix that when you go after the main bearing problem.

Oh yeah, one more "finally" - if you would/could prop up your video recording device (phone?) so we could SEE the clutch lever movement WHILE listening to the sounds we might learn more if you did multiple "cycles" of clutch application. The existing video just didn't really allow vision and hearing to be used together. (and I'm not sure I heard anything particularly unusual) But I sure didn't like what I think I saw and heard at that 28 second point.
Ed

[go_hercules]

Sparky, when you had things apart, I was wondering how the fit was between the clutch hub and the clutch cage (looks like a gear inside a ring in your photos). If that fit is sloppy, seems like it could cause rattling when the clutch is disengaged. Just a thought.....

[taber hodaka]

Is there a chipped tooth on the clutch pinion gear? Damage? -------------Clarence

[go_hercules]

Matt, if you happen to read this I had a question about your above post. You said that a mushroomed pinion bushing gave you that graunch sound. Can you explain why the bushing being mushroomed causes this sound. I don't understand what physically makes the sound because of this. Thanks.

[Hydraulic Jack]

A mushroomed bushing can sqwauk due to friction between bushing and pinion gear. The pinion rides on the bushing and should move freely. If the bushing is overtightened, it gets distorted making it fatter than it should be, and thus too big for the hole. Riding down the road, the pinion and bushing are turning at the same speed because the clutch is engaged. When you pull the lever and release the clutch, the pinion gear is no longer driven by the clutch, but the crankshaft is still turning, and the bushing allows the gear to become stationary, or turn more slowly, than the crankshaft. Like coasting to a stop with the bike in gear and clutch pulled in, or sitting at the start line with the bike in gear but standing still.

At that point, the pinion bushing is turning with the crank but the pinion is not. If the bushing is mushroomed and binding inside the pinion, pulling in the clutch will produce the sound of the bushing and gear rubbing violently against each other. This can produce a growl or sqwuak noise that you can hear. If the bushing gets hot enough to transfer metal it will bind and defeat the clutch.

[go_hercules]

EXCELLENT explanation. I picture just what you're saying. I was thinking the sound, whether you call it rattling, growling, etc. was coming from something bouncing around, but I see how the binding could cause such a noise. Would probably explain why so many Hodakas make that noise, since it so easy to overtighten the nut. Guess mine will come apart for inspection now that I know what to look for.

[taber hodaka]

Torque wrenches are cheap at harbor freight or pawn shops. If you do not have one, do not take your engine apart. Parts are more expensive than torque wrenches. Buy a manual also. To me it is hard to overtighten clutch nuts.-----Clarence

[go_hercules]

I usually tighten fasteners until they won't go anymore, then add 1 additional turn.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Tighten until either the threads strip or the stud breaks, then back off half to three quarters turn.....

Check the manual or the Strictly Hodaka model specifications to find a list of torque values. Anything on the bike that has a stated torque value has that value for a reason. Sometimes the reason has to do with properly stressing a stud or bolt, or achieving a friction load that won't back out. In the case if the pinion bushing, the value is a determined setting at which the bushing and clutch assembly will be adequately tightened so as to load the right side crank bearing without distortion of the bushing, which is pretty soft compared to the hard steel parts around it. Done right, the clutch is firmly attached, the crank doesn't wander, the bushing isn't squashed, and everyone is happy. Done wrong, the bushing is distorted, and service life is seriously compromised.

Clarence is exactly right. Proper tools are cheaper than vintage parts. Always torque the clutch nut with a torque wrench in the proper inch pound range. Faking it doesn't work all that often.

[Bullfrog]

I had an ongoing debate once with someone who shall remain un-named. This person adamantly maintained that tightening the clutch nut by "feel" was perfectly adequate, but that the cylinder head nuts and the magneto flywheel nut should certainly be tightened to the proper torque . . . and that a torque wrench was indeed a part of his tool inventory. After several exchanges supporting our individual contentions on the matter, it was revealed that the torque wrench in the gentleman's inventory only worked in the "righty tighty" direction, so it could not be used to tighten the clutch nut to spec. (and he sure wasn't going to add a second torque wrench to his tool inventory). Um, get a torque wrench which works in both directions and use it. Proper torque for the ACE 100 series clutch nut is 250 in-lbs.
Ed

[matt glascock]

Hey Go, Just saw your inquiry regarding the pinion bushing and that it was answered about..uh...infinitely better that I could've by HJ. So, in answer to your question - what he said.

[go_hercules]

Thanks Matt. So after you changed that bushing, did your clutch get noticeably quieter, did the growling and graunching go away altogether?

[matt glascock]

Hi Go, I changed the pinion gear and bushing as a set because, as HJ elegantly described, the deformed bushing appeared to have "machined" the inside of the pinion gear to some extent. I also replaced the thrust and lock washers and rebuilt/blue printed the clutch with the upgraded clutch plates. The clutch works perfectly and is buttery smooth. At idle, when I disengage the clutch, there is a soft, gentle "whirring" sound which, I've been assured, is entirely normal. No grawnch, no clank, no crunch whatsoever. There is an excellent, step-by-step treatise on clutch rebuilding contained in the Official Wombat Shop Manual. It allowed a hack like me perform a believable impersonation of a top-notch wrench

[go_hercules]

Thanks, I think I will take mine apart tomorrow and have a look. Always thought that rattling/growling was normal. But it will be nice to hear it purr instead. Thanks.