Slow going off the line

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:44 am

Hi guys,
1969 Ace 100 update:
So I fixed the front brake and took her on a spin. The first gear seems like it is not fully engaged. The gearing on the bike is really low. Super high rpms and the bike barely goes off the line. I should be popping wheelies but it just revs high and goes slow.

Does this sound like a worn clutch pack or just typical flabby compression?
Or maybe the hamster is falling off the wheel.

Along with the rattle noise I hear with the clutch pulled in, I could be due for a rebuild.
Sigh..

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:13 am

First thing to check is the amount of available free play of the clutch lever on the engine. Disconnect the cable from the lever at the engine then check for lever freeplay. You should have a minimum of 3/32" of free play (measured at the end of the lever) - more free play is OK up to about 3/8" max. I'm guessing that you may have zero free play . . . an indication that the clutch friction disks are worn (possibly worn out). You can remove shims from beneath the "clutch throw-out bearing" to increase free play. If adjustment of free play doesn't solve the clutch slipping problem, then it is certainly time for clutch rebuild. (We already pretty much know you need to replace the clutch bushing . . . so you are "going in there" pretty soon anyway."

Ed

Hydraulic Jack · Post by **Hydraulic Jack** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:42 am

Could be a worn clutch pack or could be it isn't built right and doesn't have the right number of discs. Or it could be hung up. If the clutch bearing is shot, the rest of the clutch isn't going to be pristine. Disassemble, count your parts, compare to the chart of parts, make a list of what new parts are needed, get them, and rebuild. If your clutch won't connect in first, it will only get worse and will never fix itself. It could be the free play, but I wouldn't count on it.

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:16 am

Thanks guys.
the clutch lever free play hits the case as it bottoms out. So it moves a lot.
Is it easier to dismantle this while it is in the bike or should I just bench it?

olddogs · Post by **olddogs** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:45 am

I like to lay the bike over on its side using an old dismounted car tire for cushion. The procedure for clutch removal has been covered many times on this site, Leaving the engine in gives you some leverage as a loose engine on the bench can run around on you while you try and free up some of the clutch components.

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:43 am

Free play is measured from "bottomed out" against the case screw boss "up" to where-ever the lever stops when you move it up by hand.
Ed

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:45 am

OK, from the bottomed out position, clutch lever touching the case screw boss, to the hard spot is about 1/4" of free play.

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:07 am

OK. Clutch lever free play is not the issue. By the way, the reason for checking free play is that, if there is no free play, essentially the clutch is partially disengaged before you even put a hand on the clutch lever. So having some free play at the engine clutch lever is essential.

But, lack of free play is not the issue here. You already know the clutch bushing is worn (the "graunch" sound when you pull in the clutch lever) . . . and your clutch is slipping all the time. Time to go "in" and check out the internals.
Ed

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:47 am

After checking again, in order to have the free play relaxed I need to take the clutch lever setting bolt off of the cable. I tested with a variety of cable tightness settings. I think I am maxed out with the cable length relative to the clutch setting needed to have just enough tension release.
Also when at idle and putting it into gear, it has a tendency to die. Like there is a slight engagement issue even with the clutch pilled all the way in.

Having ridden this around a little bit, I am still getting used to the short gear ratio of first gear and the relative under-powered-ness overall. I think a proper hone and re-ring may be in the future as well.

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:13 pm

You might have missed the part about removing the end of the cable from the lever at the engine. We want the engine clutch lever to be completely free from the cable . . . then check the free play of lever on the engine.

The adjuster at the clutch lever on the handle bar has nothing to do with checking the free play of the engine clutch lever.

There will always be some "drag" with a wet clutch, but with a properly operating clutch it is very minimal and will not drag down the engine. If you are comparing the performance of a 100cc, rode-hard-and-put-away-wet, worn out, bad clutch, super low-geared trail bike, which is not yet tuned or repaired to . . . well, almost anything else on two wheels . . . it may not impress. But hey, after a little TLC? Things ought to change!
Ed

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:41 pm

Thanks for helping me get there Ed,
The play was 1/4" with the cable disconnected.
Now i have the cover off. A little barrel fell out. I assume that is the clutch disc pin that fits in the case.

I am printing out drawings of this Ace 100.
I am still waiting for manual to arrive this week but would at least like to get an inspection of parts going.

Any direction as to disassembly at this point would be great if'n you have time.
I'm sorta running back and forth inside the house every 20 minutes! Working against the setting sun.

Q:
How do you crack the crankshaft nut on the cluster? Its a reverse thread?
And is it a 21mm? 21mm socket seems somewhat loose. (Can't locate my 20MM socket!)
Someone had his way with this nut in a previous life.

Whats the best way to hold the clutch still? I dont want to crack the aluminum case........
Thanks
dc

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:25 pm

Can someone else help sparkyj? I've got my regular schedule of meetings PLUS Hodaka Days stuff.

Yes the clutch nut is left hand thread - the ONLY left hand thread on the whole scooter.

Sparky . . . this might be time to quote one of my oft mentioned philosophical quips. "Slow down. You'll go faster." Translation: If you mess something up really badly because you just couldn't wait for the manual to arrive . . . the mess up may cost you wayeeeee more time overall. Two cents from an old coot.
Ed

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:02 pm

Why did I know you we gonna say that!?
Putting on my Simon and Garfunkel records now...

while i wait

........for the manual.

MTrat · Post by **MTrat** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:57 pm

The thread on/in the ignition flywheel for your puller is left hand also....

Bill2001 · Post by **Bill2001** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:32 pm

Good advice, Ed.
The 21mm socket for the clutch nut is probably the most critical tool for the engine. The clutch nut is very thin and is backed up with a Belleville washer so it's going to be hard to grip and difficult to loosen. If the DPO used a 7/8" (22mm+)
on it then it may be rounded. The best socket would be a 6-point with the recess ground flat so that maximum grip is possible. A 12-point might work, though it might not grip as well. An impact wrench would be helpful, too.

The 21mm socket will be used on the nut on the primary gear.

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:17 pm

Perfect. What is the best way to hold it still whist you crack the nut?

See the pic for the washer situation

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:19 pm

DOH!

MTrat is right. I keep forgetting about the flywheel puller threads.

Ed

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:21 pm

THATS NUTS!

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:27 pm

Hey, Found this link on another thread
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0008

Anyone ever use one of these?

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:47 pm

I don't have one of those tools, but it should work fine. The pins on the top side of the jaws would be what you would use to hold the clutch or the magneto flywheel. The pins are automatically limited on how far they "reach" inside - which can be really important on the ignition side. You don't want to gouge up the coils by reaching in too far.
Ed

Bill2001 · Post by **Bill2001** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:47 pm

Or get the Hodaka tool from Paul at SH:

: 909523-2.jpg (76.6 KiB) Viewed 6423 times

Bill2001 · Post by **Bill2001** » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:58 pm

On the LH threads on the puller, I scribed a left arrow memory jogger with an electric carbide scriber.

Hydraulic Jack · Post by **Hydraulic Jack** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:25 am

sparkyj wrote:Hey, Found this link on another thread
https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0008

Anyone ever use one of these?

Yes. They work very well, although you can find them for a lot less than price shown. Various brands, same tool. Can also be used to hold sprocket while tightening nut.

sparkyj · Post by **sparkyj** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:44 pm

Thanks, Any other specialty tools you think I'll need for this job? Will I need a Flywheel puller, or?
Just want to get the tools in place in time.

Hydraulic Jack · Post by **Hydraulic Jack** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:01 pm

There are several tools needed to properly maintain a motorcycle, but two tools that you just can't fake are the flywheel puller and an impact driver (non-electric, smack it with a hammer type). Beyond that, torque wrench, electric multi-tool, feeler gauges, and metric sockets. And a manual.

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