B+ shift adjustment

[relic]

Hello everyone. Once again I'm looking for advice...
I'm just about ready to put my engine in the frame. I decided I'd install the mag cover and try the shifter on the bench first. I had cleaned it thoroughly so tonight I packed it with grease and shot some in both fittings. With the back tin cover bolted on I installed the mag cover and tried going through the gears while rotating the sprocket.
1st and neutral ok, 2nd thru 5th not engaging. If I put some finger pressure on the end of the control shaft they seem to engage.
Once I have 5th locked in I can downshift and it locks into each gear going down. I took the cover back off and learned how the adjustment works with the eccentric. I'll play with that tomorrow night.
My questions are: Does this sound like an adjustment issue?

Should I be adjusting with the engine on the bench or is that a waste of time? Should I wait until its in the bike and the chain and rear wheel are in place?

The shifter ratchet, plunger, shaft key all seem good. With the cover in hand it shifts solidly, feels right.
There is no play in the foot change shaft. But there is some between the sliding pin and the shifter arm. And some in the arm itself, in and out.
I realize its hard for you guys to know what I mean by "some play" but in general is this a problem?

thanks again for all the help and info.

Ken

[BrianZ]

Your problem could very well be an adjustment issue, but there are a couple of things that often go bad. First off are the ball receiver and springs. These are located in the hollow transmission counter shaft. Over time and with a bit of abuse, the springs "unwind", upsetting the shifting. The best way to check the springs is to remove them and inspect them. This can be done without splitting the cases.

Next, the hole in the shift cover where the foot change shaft passes through tends to wear out. This can be repaired with bushings.

Like you said, it's hard to describe how much free play is too much.

The adjustment can be made with the engine in the bike or on the bench. Either way, all the gears should engage properly. The final verification is riding the bike.

P.S. If you ever find yourself in Southern Ontario feel free to drop me a line. I may be able to help out.

Brian

[relic]

Thanks Brian. Thanks for the offer. I do make it to the CVMG Paris rally every year. And if I get this B+ done and running well I'll ride it down this year.
(I'm also interested in finding an 02 or 03 project if you hear of anything)

The hole in the cover is good. I've got no play between the shaft and the cover. I did look at the ball receiver (through the ball holes in the counter shaft) when I had the bottom end apart. (I did crank and trans brgs, all the seals and checked the crank runout last winter). The ball receiver looked ok to me then.
I'll try to get the adjustment correct on the bench and if it doesn't work out I'll dig into the ball receiver. And try to measure the play between the sliding pin and shift arm.
Good to know it can be done on the bench.

Ken

[socalhodaka]

Here's how Greg at California Hodaka sets it all up with a old center case.

[taber hodaka]

Excellent, Greg always does things in such a creative way! ---------------Clarence

[relic]

No luck with adjusting; either I have a clean first and no fifth or the other way around. I'm guessing there is too much play in the shifter. When engaged in any gear I can move the arm in and out quite a bit. Funny that movement doesn't seem to disengage a gear but it must be enough that adjustment won't compensate?
With the cover removed I can manually move the control rod and engage each gear without trouble. I can feel what seems like equal spring load on the ball in both directions. But I don't know the true condition of the ball/springs.

Should I be investing in a good used cover and shifter? It wouldn't bother me at all to switch it to a Wombat shift pattern but at what cost?

And I admit I can't see how the control rod, ball and springs come out without splitting the cases? I have another counter shaft with a control rod, (a complete transmission) so if that's a possible cause I could try my spare. Too bad I don't have a spare cover.

Thanks!

Ken

[hodakamax]

Proper shifting is a product of the sum of all the slack in the system. Springs, shaft tolerances, case bore and each and every part contribute to a successful shifting event. It can be too much tolerance on one part or too much tolerance on the sum of all parts involved. Usually it's the latter. If all seems sloppy it's probably time to go through the entire shifting mechanism and get things back in tolerances. Case to shifter shaft wear is usually the main culprit and can be rebuilt with a bushing. Shims are available to take out slack in other areas. Control shaft springs should be replaced and all parts should be checked for excessive wear. There are people who rebuild cases on the Forum and other sites. A used case will probably be worn out too.
Control shaft springs can be removed from the clutch side out of the end of the countershaft but does require a special tool to re-assemble. Things wear out every 50 years and it's part of the vintage Hodaka experience. The plus side is when it's fixed and maintained these assemblies can last for a long period of time.
There are instructions and manuals available on the Strictly Hodaka site on these procedures or there are people who do this work. As always, no easy fix but all within reach. Good luck and I hope this helps!

Max

[relic]

Helps for sure Max. I know what you mean about a used part but the lure of a "1 down, 4 up" pattern is there. I'm at an age where I'm easily confused by anything that isn't routine. But I've got too much time and money invested to give up so I'll keep at it no matter what it takes.
I can't move the shifter shaft in the case at all, seems fine. But the arm has some play in and out which allows the control shaft to move in and out. If I have it adjusted to fully engage first, when I get to fifth it doesn't lock in. But a tiny amount of finger pressure on the end of the control shaft will engage the gear and then it stays engaged. And the same if I adjust for a solid 5th it takes a slight pull on the control shaft to achieve 1st.

Perhaps one of those dumb questions but is there such a thing as too much grease? I had loosely mounted the cover without the inner tin plate a couple of days ago and ran through the gears once. (but only the one time up to 5th and back to 1st) The shifter and case was freshly cleaned and totally dry. It seemed ok so I packed the grease to it and pumped some in each fitting. I used a basic wheel bearing grease.

thanks once again. Shift drums and forks I'm used to --- the Hodaka system is totally new to me.

Ken

[viclioce]

Ken. One thing I've noticed when shifting on the bench, versus when shifting on the bike with the motor running, is the tranny doesn't much care for upshifting on the bench. But, if you keep a few fingers on the countershaft sprocket & move it around a bit, the tranny will upshift more easily on the bench.

I don't know if this is a wear or alignment or bushing issue but I know that minor movements in the countershaft have always helped make upshifting easier with a non-running motor on the work bench. I even experienced this on my Model 94 bottom end which was completely rebuilt, including the springs and balls inside the counter shaft. ; D Victor

[hodakamax]

Hey Ken, In answer to your question about grease, there is never too much grease. I should also say that the adjustment of the shifter arm is critical. There's only one place that you get all gears at the same time. My method is to turn the adjusting bolt in very small increments and tightening the nut before each test of finding all the gears. As I said before there are shims available for both the two shafts involved that are fairly easy to install. Installing a bushing in the case is more involved. At this point I would make sure that I'd tried every possibility on the adjustment.

Max

[Al Harpster]

You might take a look at these attachments from the Ace Workshop Manual.

Remove the little inspection cover where you can adjust the cam screw.

Take the sheet metal dust cover off the case by removing all those little screws and set the shift cover it on a flat surface.

Flat surface like a Glass plate, piece of smooth marble or granite tile from Home D, or something you think is quite flat.

Make a block that's 1.382 tall by maybe 3/8" thick.

See how that gage block seems to fit when shifter is in Third Gear.

I made a block out of wood and measured it with the cheap Harbor Freight type calipers. Not great, but a start.

The trial and error method is on pages 67 and 68 of the work shop manual. If you don't have a manual you will probably be best served by getting one.

If you can't work out the problem with these two methods you may consider taking the shift mechanism apart and looking for the worst worn components.

One last note, if it shifted ok before, it should be able to do so again.

[MTrat]

Remember the old trick for solving many types of tuning problems. If available, swap the whole side cover with one from a bike that shifts well and see if it shifts okay. This can narrow the source of the problem.

[relic]

Wow, thanks for all the assistance. Much appreciated. I do have the original Hodaka workshop manual, (the one with the red cover) plus the Clymer manual, (which pretty much just borrows text and photos from the oem). Unfortunately I don't have anyone close by with any Hodakas to borrow a cover. Wish I did. But I'm pretty sure that the internals are ok as I can move the control shaft and achieve each gear cleanly. Good to know that I haven't over greased the mechanism, .
I think I see how the shaft can be removed without splitting the cases but I'm curious---what happens to the engagement balls if you remove the shaft? Do they not go awol with no shaft to hold them in place?

Its late now but over the weekend I'll do some more trial and error adjusting plus I'll study and try the method Otilladillon posted.
I'll be back!

thank you,
Ken

[Dale]

The balls are safe and will stay in place with the shaft removed.

[Bullfrog]

I'm responding with thumbs on a cellphone - so no long responses. My "diagnosis" from your "data" is that you have a partially collapsed control shaft spring on one side of the ball receiver. If that is correct, replacement of control shaft springs and ball receiver is recommended. Note that mis-adjustment of shifter mechanism, or excessive free-play due to wear, or really bad shifting technique by the DPO (Dreaded Previous Owner) are the most likely causes of the collapsed control shaft spring.
Ed

[relic]

Thanks Ed. I'll pull the control shaft and check it out. When assembling I looked at the springs through the engagement ball holes and to me they looked ok but then that's obviously not the best way to check them. I should know better than to cut corners. And I have no idea of the history of this bike. It had a reed intake but no piston or cylinder modifications so that probably tells you something about one of he DPO's.
I'll report back with my findings.

thanks again.
Ken

[relic]

Well I removed the control shaft, springs and ball receiver today. Photo shows that Ed, (and others) were right on the money.
I'm ordering the kit from Paul tonight. Hoping he has the space age set in stock.



I notice a groove in the ball receiver where the engagement balls ride. Is this wear or is this the way they are?

I'm pretty certain I have too much play between the sliding pin and the arm as well. I want this bike to be a good runner and reliable so I'm going to order one of the repro shifter guide arm assembly as well.
Anything that I need to order to swap out the guide arm?

thank you.

Ken

[hodakamax]

Looks normal, the ball receiver is starting to wear very slightly, I'd use it. There's a couple of spacers that you can order to tighten the shifter arm, # 90202502 and 03. You're on the right track!

Max

[Bullfrog]

Like Max, I'd be perfectly comfortable re-using the ball receiver. Note that it has a slight "groove" (shallow valley) around the middle as part of the design.

Yowee, that one spring is really collapsed! But you are now on the right track. New space age springs and spiffing up the shifter mechanism and you'll have it shifting great!
Ed
PS: When you get it together, snick those shifts. No "stomp and hold". No.

[relic]

Haha, so what you're saying Ed is don't shift it like my '74 Moto Guzzi Eldorado?
Thanks for all the help. I went ahead and ordered the complete space age kit so I'll have a new ball receiver to install with the new springs regardless.
Probably 2-3 weeks before the parts get up to the great white north but I'll post on this thread once I'm back at it.

Ken

[viclioce]

Don't forget the clip tool also! ; D Victor

[relic]

Ok, so far, so good. I received my space age spring kit along with a new repro shift arm assembly on Monday. (thanks Paul).
Spring kit is in. If I had any notion of doing this job more than once I'd spring for the special tool, (pun intended ) but I managed to do the clip install without it. More about how I did it later if anyone is interested.
Now onto installing the new arm. On disassembly I removed the slot headed bolt that retains the ratchet spring. I see now that I didn't need to do that.
So first question --- How tight should that bolt be? I suspect only tight enough to retain the spring in place but not bind the spring arms?

Second question --- What is the trick to opening the spring to allow the ratchet shaft key to drop in place? Do you pull the spring arms open with some sort of home made bent hook tool?

thanks once more!

Ken

[Dale]

Second question --- What is the trick to opening the spring to allow the ratchet shaft key to drop in place? Do you pull the spring arms open with some sort of home made bent hook tool?

thanks once more!

Ken

No special tool required. It is a feel thing. Start the shaft down into place. Apply pressure down and then turn the shaft first in one direction and then the other while keeping that downward pressure. It doesn't take much pressure nor side to side movement and it will drop into place.

[hodakamax]

Hey Ken, I'm impressed that you got the shifter spring clip on without the special tool. Bravo! As for the screw it screws tight into the case. The head is only a spacer for the ends of the spring. Tighten the screw in the case and then spread the spring over the head. Then it should be spaced enough to slip the key in as Dale says.

Max

[relic]

That makes sense. The head of the bolt spreading the spring a touch will help. Off the to garage to give this a try. (before the locktite sets up on the bolt).
Ken