100B v. 100B+ spec sheet

[Zyx]

For what it is worth, the website supplemental spec sheet for the 100B shows specs for the B model (92) but the photo on the spec sheet is clearly the 100B+. High fender, single rear sprocket with six bolt attachment are visible in the left side shot. Specs list the dual sprocket that was used on the B.

Anyone know why? Perhaps Hodaka Japan thought the specs were close enough to not print a whole new booklet, and just changed the photo at the top.

[taber hodaka]

The spec sheet is correct at least it agrees with all the data I have for the 100B hi fender seat ect. But there is discrepancy in some of the documents. In regards to the 92, 92A, 92B and the 92B+ I think I am all alone on my side of the fence but then I have all the tall grass and I do share.
Clarence
PS Just changing the pictures on the booklet isn't good and compares to mixing up some numbers or not being consistent with them.

[Bullfrog]

But high front fenders were first seen on the B+, right? 100 B models didn't have high front fenders did they?
Ed

[Zyx]

They did not.

[taber hodaka]

I will not say that they did, but I will say several of my Hodaka manuals show that they do.
Hodaka workshop manual 100B, picture on page 13c.
The Complete Hodaka Master Parts list volume II 100/B (92B) the picture on the front cover shows the high fender. In the section that covers the front fork assembly figure N #33 part number 938735, front fender stay for the high fender.
My July of 1971 Hodaka Parts Usage Book, shows the part used on the (92B).
Clarence

[BrianZ]

Interesting point Clarence...

Looking at the same manual, in the fenders section on page 69C it states that the high fender was introduced at S/N A-51013. The new Hodaka book states that this S/N is the start of B+ production, but other sources state the B+ started at S/N A-67613.

While investigating I found the following in a December 1971 Cycle World test of the Ace 100:

"The B model is their highly improved trail machine. The changes to the latter have been the use of trials type tire, separate reset speedo and headlight, wider handlebars, internal spring forks, larger rear shocks, more ground clearance, thinner saddle, spring loaded pegs, expansion chamber/muffler, and other internal improvements.
Overall, though, the newest version, the 'B+' model, still has the same old Hodaka look about it that made the Ace 90 the trademark of the time."

This sort of implies that the larger speedo was used on the Ace 100B.

For what it is worth, my own Ace 100B is S/N A-44655 and it has the low fender, small speedo and early style forks with the large top cap.

Brian

[taber hodaka]

Brian does your 100B have the flame thrower pipe? Not everything is cut and dried, there are grey areas. I only know of one change on the B+ if everything is according to my books.
Clarence

[taber hodaka]

The B+ did start at 67613 I believe. I have the trifold of the 92B+. Clarence

[BrianZ]

Yes Clarence, my 100B has the flame thrower pipe.

One of the nice things about the Hodaka Workshop manual is the "modification history" section. It lists the changes made and the serial numbers that the changes where phased in. The modification history covers serial numbers up to A-51713, but refers to these models as the ACE 100B. It makes no mention of ACE 100B+.

Brian

[Zyx]

That would be because the B+ started with 51713.

The magazine description of the improvements to the 100 is for the 100B. The only improvement I can no longer verify is the resettable speedo. I may have a photo of my original bike somewhere here in a box, but it would take days to find. My best recollection is that my 100B, A-46737, built in Sept 70, had a separate speedo, not one built into the headlamp housing. The one built in, as far as I know, went with the Ace 100, not the B. My headlamp housing was too small to contain a speedo, and the speedo cable, which for some reason is still laying around here somewhere, was long enough to reach to the crossbar.

[BrianZ]

There is a lot of conflicting information. From documents I have on hand I found the following:

- The new Hodaka book lists A-51013 as the start of B+ production.

- I have a reference card (that originates from a Pabatco memo) listing A-67613 as the start of B+ production. See page 62 of the new Hodaka book.

- The Hodaka service manual implies that A-51713 is still a 100B.

- The Hodaka Master Parts List states that 100B production commences at A-51013. In the parts list there is part diagram showing a high mount fender and in the same diagram the older forks with the larger caps. This document also shows a re-settable speedo.

- The larger speedo with the re-settable odometer was introduced at A-51013.

- The high mount fender was introduced at A-51013.

- The final version of Ace forks (938750A) were introduced at A-51713.

There were extensive modifications beginning at A-51013, so at this time I tend to agree with the new Hodaka book when it states that A-51013 is the start of B+ production, although I am by no means certain.

I wonder if is possible that Hodaka in Japan referred to all the later Ace models as B's whereas Pabatco marketed the improved B as a B+ to differentiate from earlier B production runs and to add a little marketing "zing".

Brian

[taber hodaka]

What could we refer to that would show the B+ started with 51713, My material I refer to shows the B+ starting at 67613.
Clarence

[BrianZ]

Clarence, I don't have anything that states B+ production starts at A-51713. The only thing I have is the Workshop Manual modification listing that states that the revised 938750A forks were introduced at A-51713. If the B+ was introduced with those forks, then the earliest possible S/N for the B+ would be A-51713.

Brian

[Zyx]

Sounds to me like the assembly line built bikes with the parts provided on the day of production. If Hodaka did not visualize any of their machines as belonging to a given "year" of production, perhaps they didn't make much of a distinction between "models" either. If today's mission is to build X number bikes, and new parts were arriving piecemeal intended to go into the next version of the 100, Hodaka simply started adding parts as they arrived. It isn't how Henry Ford would have done it, but it is how Johnny Cash would have done it.

As for keeping records, how really do you keep accurate records regarding one model versus another if parts are being blended in as old style parts were used up and new style parts are ready to go? The differences between the 100B and B+ are few. Perhaps Hodaka Japan saw no harm in using parts on hand without regard to a build list but did see harm in either stopping production altogether until the right parts were all in hand, or setting aside piles of old style parts that could be used but were for an earlier model.

This sounds to me like careless production which would make record keeping a real pain.

[taber hodaka]

Az you are absolutely correct. But as a dealer with customers that cared about the best, it made sense at the time. I received several crates some time maybe 6 or 8 per week or more, in the summer month's. The fact that Hodaka used the upgraded part in the next motorcycle produced was one of our selling points. That way the dealer did not have left over yearend models he had to discount, may seem like a negative today but we considered it a plus at the time. Every upgraded part fit the former models and we considered that to be a plus also. I do think we all cared more about bikes running than record keeping. I believe the data supplied by PABATCO on page 62 was correct. I also think the Model production sums document is correct, but there are certainly some grey areas. In the middle of all of these confusing times July 1971 Hodaka printed the (HODAKA PARTS USAGE BOOK). It listed the beginning and ending serial number of each model made, it is unique because it lists every part number. If you look up a part number it will tell You which model it fit and if it fit more than one model. But there is confusion based on our memory even for us that lived the era. The Hagerty blue book lists the value of a 1969 ace 100A (92A) to be $800 for fair ---$1100 for good --- and $ 1400 for excellent. Greg nobody pays better attention to detail than you and that is meant to be a positive. New years at you, Clarence

[Bullfrog]

Arizona,

It's nice that you are petting the dog - but he likes it better when you pet from head tail - rather than from tail to head.

One might consider - as Clarence has suggested - that PABATCO/Hodaka operated under a plan which was not common back in the day. We didn't do "model years". And yes, once improvements had passed all the necessary testing and approvals, the operating philosophy was to bring those improvements to the market.

It is the value judgements you like to place (somewhat after the fact, without full consideration of alternatives) on the way things were done long ago which tends to rub some of us (obviously, me - for one) the wrong way. If Johnny Cash would have produced in the same way we did, I reckon that shows he might have been more interested in gettting "good stuff" to his customers as soon as reasonably possible. (and that is a bad thing???)

The characterization of "careless production" is also off base - and the inclusion of such a value judgement was not necessary to make the point that production records under such a system are more difficult to keep accurately. But "careless" (ie, without care)? Not an accurate charge.

Having said that, we are beginning to understand that you apply rather stringent standards to all things . . . and that few things seem to meet those standards. In addition, we are coming to understand that, "Well, that's just the way Arizona thinks, and he means well. Bless his heart."

Ed
PS: Happy New Year!