Help to ID a Bike Model

[1963corvette]

Could use some help from an expert on Reading the Strictly Hodaka Data sheet on correctly identifying a Bike.
The serial number on the Frame is B42143. According to the Data sheet on the Strictly Hodaka website this should be a 1970 Ace 100 (92B) with an "A" Frame serial number? The Bike does not have a front ID Build Date/Serial # tag on steering column. Hard to understand why the frame is stamped with a B?
Any help is appreciated.
Thank you

[taber hodaka]

Anything listed as Bframe is a super rat. Any thing listed B37211 through B53112 is a super rat or a 93. The 93A began with B53113 .------------ Clarence there could be coments

[Zyx]

You are correct that your frame number, disregarding the letter for the moment, falls within the sequence for a 1970 model 92. I believe this is the third anomaly found in the chart within the past few months.

Frankly, the chart is simply wrong with regard to 92B's and 93's made around 1970. There used to be an older chart that only showed the start number for each model sequence. This chart was correct. However, when a recent book was published, a close review of extant business records for Hodaka showed a lot more detail available in the form of start and stop numbers in sequence. Problem is, these records were either completely scrambled, or were interpreted incorrectly. Only a few people have seen the data so just what the issue is, we don't really know. The chart that Paul shows on the website is the best that could be made of that version of the data, but I believe the chart should be abandoned until it can be straightened out. The old one had less info, but what was there was completely accurate. It just didn't attempt to say when sequences started and stopped within a year when production shifted back and forth between models. Apparently, Hodaka was not making multiple models concurrently. Either Hodaka kept terrible records then, or the information used to produce the chart was incomplete or corrupt.

The numbering on your frame is, however, definitive of the model bike it originally was. A B number was used on Super Rats in or around 1970. I have frame number A46737, a 1971 92B made in September 1970. Yours would have been made several months earlier. I believe the models were made in batches of around 600 at a time, numbers running sequentially, frame letter designations changing back and forth to match actual model produced as the assembly line switched back and forth. Someone would have to explain to me their manufacturing model at that time because it sounds inefficient to me.

Bottom line is you have a Super Rat.

[1963corvette]

Thanks for responses. The website data sheet on Strictly Hodaka seems to make sense with the Start/Stop serial numbers by Year, by Model. 1970 for some reason is an exception, maybe some other years. As a collector you always want to verify numbers and dates, whether for classic cars or motorcycles. If you are not a collector it doesn't matter. It's unfortunate there is no accurate data listing of serial numbers for Hodaka's. I understand that these bikes now go back 50 years and the company has been out of business for decades. Not having a ID plate on the front steering does not help my situation as at least there would be a double verification of the frame number. There does not seem to be any valid accurate record of production for Hodaka's that people can say is the Bible when checking numbers. Lots of opinions, and comments of "uncharted" serial numbers, but nothing as an official record.
Thank you

[Zyx]

I don't know that I would say there is no "bible." Actually, the chart, errors included, (and the Bible itself has errors), is the most complete and transparent compilation of data available anywhere. There were perhaps four people who collaborated to build the chart. Clearly, there is a problem in the 1970/1971 model year production data, and I don't think anyone has yet found what it is that went wrong. If you use the chart for what it is worth, it is more complete than any you will find, it just isn't perfect. Yet. That can't be so unusual in the antique or collector vehicle world.

For example, if you find your frame number, just the number not the letter, on the chart, you will have the time frame within which the bike was produced because numbers were assigned in sequence, not batched ahead of time and used out of sequence. Or so I believe. It was common practice for vehicle makers to produce for example a 1971 model year machine during the early to mid months of the year before. That's why my 1971 Ace 100B was made in September 1970. Cars then were made along a similar timeline and probably still are.

To correct the chart, or discover what went wrong with the data, it may be necessary to poll forum and Hodaka Club members to troll for their data plate information, and build a parallel database using real machines as the source. Of course there won't be as many examples to build on compared to total production at the time, but it might be enough to lead to an answer.

The data plate wasn't used on all models of Hodaka as far as I understand it. Early 90's didn't have plates, and maybe even some of the early Ace 100's. By 1970 production, plates were used. However they are only held on with two tiny rivets, and some have either fallen off or were removed when frames were repainted. Or perhaps some think they distract from the look and pulled them off. Data plates also did not have engine numbers on them, so they really don't show anything much more than the number itself provides. The plate, at this point, would be more of a concours issue.

Anyway, if you have a clearly stamped serial number in the proper location, it can be trusted, and the chart will lead you to an answer within a couple months of accurate. You just have to know that for some reason, the chart has blended sequence numbers in the 1970/1971 range. We haven't seen any anomalies starting with the 1972 Wombat and forward, and none earlier than 1970 production. That means that the overwhelming balance of the chart is correct.

[1963corvette]

Thank you for the detailed posts. Your information is very informative and appreciated. I have also gone back to look at several of your posts on uncharted serial numbers. One in particular where you state having an ID plate and frame stamp is much more assurance that the bike is correct, even though it may fall into the category of uncharted. I am a collector, not a rider so history and confirmation of dates/numbers are a must for me. Not having the ID tag, not being able to verify the serial number on a Hodaka chart does not complete the vetting process for me. I understand that things happen and records are not kept properly, but find it difficult to understand according to the chart that there is an "A" frame bike with the same number as a "B" frame in the same year (1970). I've looked at a number of Super Rats all have Frame ID tags, I'm sure as you say some get either knocked off or take off for some reason or another. The combination of all this for me does not meet my Test for spending thousands. The bottom-line is it's unfortunate that there are no accurate records and the best that is available is flawed. Not anyone's fault, just a fact.
Thanks again for all of your information.

[taber hodaka]

Ouch Shorty your use of the corrupt word sends bad vibes. If your 92b had been licensed in 1970 your title would show it as a 1970. Licensed in 1971 your title would be for a 1971. Hodaka did not make any model for a given year they made upgrade changes throughout the year. You never knew what changes were in the next crate you opened, many good surprises. Did your 92b come with a cush hub? This is what my memory, receipts and books show me about models and numbers.

(90 frame number A0001 - A17384. Ace 90)
(92 frame number A17385 - A38712. Ace 100)
(93 frame number B37211 - B53112. Super Rat)
(92A frame number A38713 - A51012. Ace 100 A)
(93A frame number B53113 - B ? Super Rat)
(92B frame number A51013 - A ? Ace 100 B)

Clarence

[Zyx]

Okay, you tell me. A46737, manufactured sept 1970, documented as 1971 both at time of sale in 1972 and by State of Illinois:

Department of revenue tax declaration

Sales contract

As for corrupt data, you tell me:

Parts list and owners manual originals both

Look closely at the starting frame numbers listed on the Parts List booklet and on the Owners Manual and tell me if there is a discrepancy.

[Zyx]

1963corvette:

I don't follow your reasoning that if the data plate is missing ( but the stamped frame number is not tampered with) that somehow this would not pass your sniff test. I do understand that, since it is your money, if you are not completely comfortable buying an example that is missing an original part ( the data plate) you don't want it. It's your choice. What you would not known however, is whether the rest of the machine is original or not, even though the missing data plate harms nothing as far as identifying the frame. No chart can tell you if someone swapped out the carburetor, the cylinder, the piston, the primary gears, the clutch, the transmission, the hubs, the front forks, the seat pan, the handle bars, the fenders, the triple tree, or whatever, for parts from another model or year of Hodaka. There is in incredible exchangeability of parts between the 90 and 100 series bikes, and even well into the 125's.

Any machine has a facial presence which may appear correct when it isn't. The data plate is a facial device. If facial recognition of authenticity is more important than actual authenticity, that would be a prerogative choice as a collector which you can freely make. But I wouldn't blame the chart for you choice. When that frame was produced is a matter of record, give or take a month or two. The data plate would nail down the month, but that's all. It would still have to check against the frame stamp to be accepted as original because the frame stamp stays with the frame unless ground off or welded over, while the data plate can be swapped from one machine to another easily.

I appreciate that if you are asked to spend several thousand bucks for a chrome tank Super Rat, it should be complete and correct as a collectible item. The fault in this example lies with the bike itself, not the chart. The Hodaka-Parts website also has a chart of older vintage. You could compare against that one if you wish, but it will only place your machine within a build range. That is, the frame number you mention will show as a Super Rat circa 1970. But we knew that.

Hope you find what you are looking for, and I hope the folks on this forum can help you in your search.

[Firehawkmph]

1963 corvette,
Interesting thread. Just wondering, is the bike you are trying to ID presenting itself as a super rat, or a B? If I remember from the last couple of hodies I restored a few years ago, the coil mount is different between the two, and the rat didn't have the two arrow shaped tabs to hold the air pump.
Mike Hawkins

[1963corvette]

It doesnt have a ID plate and doesnt match to the only infomation available for matching up to a serial number. That's as far as it goes with me. I do appreciate your comments and know that you can only check so far with validation of dates, serial numbers and authenticity of a bike. I havent seen first hand the Bike I am asking about. The photos look beautiful and bike looks perfect. I hate walking away since I know the owner is honest and has represented the bike as it is...It's just a matter of the way I am with buying collectables and spending my money. I will find the Super Rat that meets my criteria one day and be back into this forum.
Thanks to all of you

[taber hodaka]

Mike you are correct on the coil and the air pump------------Clarence

[Zyx]

But the Strictly Hodaka website chart is not the only chart available. As I mentioned, there is also one on the Hodaka Parts website, which correctly shows the frame number in question as a Super Rat of the correct vintage:


http://hodaka-parts.com/model_list.asp

[taber hodaka]

And it shows the 92B+ starting with a big number and no 92A OR 92B listed. Gregory I like your word discrepancy much better than corrupt. If your dealer bought and received your motorcycle in November 1970 and you bought it in November 1970 it would have been licensed as a 1970. But you have a 1971 because that is what you say and that is what is on all your paperwork. Greg I have a green and white owners hodaka ace 100 same picture as yours but it doesn't say 100B. Hodaka had a 93 and then upgraded to the 93A in the same exact era they had a 92 and then went to the 92A. I purchased them from the distributor sold them as 92A and recorded it in my receipt book. I have manuals that list the 90, 92, 92A, 93, 92B and the 93A along with the beginning and ending frame numbers for each. (Hodaka-parts.coms) numbers don't match exactly I think he moved them just a little so he wouldn't to be in conflict. I know the starting dates on your two items handbook ect did not match I put the least amount of faith in these small publications. Greg did your 92B come with the cushion hub? If you weren't so far away we could share these thoughts over a cup of coffee. ----- Clarence It warmed up to 19 degrees today in Montana

[Zyx]

My 92B has a four bolt non-cushioned hub. I was leery of using it behind the 97 engine when I swapped motors this spring, since the hub is 45 years old, but it worked fine for Hodaka Days. I will swap the 97 engine out to a 98 frame and cushioned hub soon, and put the milder motor back on the original frame.

I suppose, though, that your question has to do with which generation of bike mine is. I can only show what documents I have (cushioned hubs didn't appear until the B+, correct?). Mine also had the low front fender that is not really trail friendly if you live around mud, and it had the flame thrower pipe, not the chrome one. I am pretty certain it was and is a B model (92B) just as the documents show.

I posted the photos to raise a different question, regarding how you sold/licensed bikes as 1971 if sold in 1971 without regard to a particular model "year." By your description, if my bike was first sold and licensed in 1972, it would have been titled or licensed as a 1972, but it wasn't. I believe your practices may have simply been your practices. Other dealers may have had a different understanding. Otherwise, why did the dealer identify mine, built in Sept 1970, as a 1971 on his contract offered to me in April of 1972? I believe it is because he understood it to be a 1971 model. He could have been wrong and perhaps should have shown it as a 1970. Don't know.

It isn't a matter of trusting or not trusting Hodaka's own publications. A difference in sequence of exactly 300 machines could be a mistype. Or not. Could be anything. The discrepancy could be a result of corrupted factory record keeping. But the script found on the publications came from Hodaka, and it wasn't published forty years after the fact. It was published in Japan in 1970.

Isn't it possible that Paul and Ken Smith have had trouble getting straight results from Hodaka records recently because the records themselves have unaccountable errors originating from that time, i.e., 1970 - 1971, that these errors simply went unremarked until recently? Three hundred machines is one half of a production sequence. Quite an oversight. But if that error is in the database and was there at the time, it could explain, in part at least, why anomalies exist in the current chart and why the sequences on the chart don't seem to make full sense in the 1971 model year as between Ace 100's and Super Rats.

[bchappy]

The pictures above are posting upside down. I keep wondering if you are using a phone and snapping the picture with the "Flash" buttons on the left. That is upside down. The phone will reposition the pictures no matter which way you turn the phone, but if you save them to a computer they will be upside down.

[RichardMott]

One other thing that differentiates the Super Rat from the Ace frame is the bracket for the rear stop light switch. The Rat didn't have one, although it is possible for someone to grind it off an re-paint the frame.
If someone already mentioned this and I missed it in the thread, sorry for the redundancy.....

Just my 2 cents.

[taber hodaka]

well we all can agree it can and is confusing. I was a licensed motorcycle dealer in Montana for 10 years. In Montana you could never get a title with a sales receipt. I don't know if the party you purchased from had a hodaka dealership or not? Regardless you have 1971 hodaka by virtue of your paperwork. My knowledge or the early hodaka years is (been there done it) and one book I used allot then and still do today printed July 1971 it is 100 pages and called the (Hodaka Parts Usage Book). It lists the ace 90 frame A0001/A17384-----92 frame A17385/A38712-----93 frame B37211/B53112-----92A frame A38713/51012-----93A frame B53113/ ???-----92B frame A51013/???? This 92B starting with A51013 January 1971 had more changes than any model I know of. The book also covered the ace 90 racing parts many of those 91 series parts went into the Super Rat. The book and my receipt book served me then along with my fading memory. And I know there are still things that lead to confusion------------Anyway that is why I am thinking like I am.-----------Clarence --I did not proof this as Momma say"s there are chores to do.

[Bullfrog]

It is nice to see that Arizona is finally calming his rhetoric and is starting to consider that there may have been conflicting/confusing/incomplete records available from the 1960's and 1970's (which is indeed the case). For the one percenters among Hodaka fans who simply can't take their next breath until totally error free production ID records are published, you should probably start researching local suppliers of assisted breathing hardware. There is information gathering going on in the background to aid in identifying exactly what the errors might be . . . and perhaps what adjustments would properly rectify the identified situations where a frame number truly exists (the machine is right there in front of someone) - but that frame number can't be found on the list. That sort of situation may, or may not, get rectified - but it will take some time to gather additional information.

I'm sorry some folks get all worked up about this topic, but the historical record of models/serial numbers is not perfectly sequential and none of us has a magic wand to change that.

Reference "model year" and state titling practices - it was QUITE common (nearly to the point of being the "default" situation) that state licensing agents would list the model year as being the year in which the sale and application for title happened. That's just the way it was.

From a Hodaka point of view - "model year" had no meaning for PABATCO or Hodaka. Certainly "Date of Production" did have meaning. If a person wants to define the year of production as the "model year", they may do so-that is a personal decision and definition. However, that was not the thinking at PABATCO/Hodaka - nor was it the thinking of most state licensing agencies at the time.
Ed

[Camman]

As the owner of the Hodaka in question in this discussion, I want to thank all you that have replied and given your expert opinion. I use the word expert because you guys have experience only found here on this forum. You were the closest eyewitnesses of the Hodaka era. Compared to the bible, you would be the “apostles” of Hodaka. You should be laughing at this point! Anyway, when 1963corvette asked for verification about the ID chart anomalies, I suggested he post his question on this forum and hence this thread. The bike in question is a 1970 Ace 100 MX (early super rat), nothing suggests otherwise. Unfortunately, the frame ID plate is gone. This along with the ID chart anomaly was enough unconfirmed data to cause 1963corvette to decline on purchasing this particular bike. From 1963corvette collector’s viewpoint, I fully understand this decision and I have no hard feelings. Thanks again, now go read your bible! Ha Ha.

[hodakamax]

I have to giggle while following this post which involves making something "perfect" in a non-perfect world. First, I must say I respect the mind set of collectors in that everything must be in order and the concept of added value for being perfect. I guess I find this somewhat silly (to me) that even a new Super Rat in a crate is not that valuable in comparison to a almost restored one. What if the restored one has a Wiseco piston or aftermarket rod? What IS the added value if it has a stock piston. I guess it depends on the buyer. I do love almost perfectly restored Hodakas which portray history but I think it misses the point on the concept of the Hodaka. I like to compare the Hodaka to the Volkswagen, volks meaning people or the People's car for everybody. Hodakas changed the scene in that anybody could get into the motorcycle thing with low investment, reliability, parts and fun.

I now have three Hodakas and all are a mix of modifications and model part switches along with aftermarket parts. Hodakas were made to be modified and improved not only by the manufacturer, but by aftermarket items and the owner himself (or her). Value? Monetarily, hard to say, personally, all extremely valuable in that they are individual creations that actually do something (one's a MXer, one's a flat tracker, and one's becoming a trials/trail fun bike). We also forget all the hours of entertainment and pride provided by plotting, procuring and building these individual things.

Summary: Enjoy your Hodaka as not just history, but as a fun concept that's still working after many decades today.

OK, Thats my opinion for today, now to go looking for my serial numbers, NOT.

Maxie

[Zyx]

Max, I have to agree with your summary. Personally, I don't quite understand the issue presented about a missing data plate unless someone is looking for a museum piece, and even then, I would look for provenance, not a data plate. If I found a complete example that once belonged to John Wayne, and had documentation, that might be worth the price. Otherwise, I guess I would be more tolerant. How many Super Rats stayed bone stock for more than a week? And how do you verify what is inside the cases where you can't just take a peek and be sure.

As for other comments, my choice of words constitutes diction, not rhetoric. I used two words, corrupted and discrepancy. They don't mean the same thing. A discrepancy in the records might have been cause by a corruption of the data. Unless someone on this forum was the record keeper for Hodaka floor production, I have no idea why either word would offend. But I do sense that I am not welcome here.

[hodakamax]

AZ, your comment that you do sense that you are not welcome here is utter nonsense. You are my favorite person to argue with. We often disagree but in my later life I only take things semi-seriously. (OK, not seriously at all). I find the Forum a social thing and entertaining to say the least and I do learn things and I've met people that I like and even consider friends. I try to comment on almost everything and try to write something funny or entertaining almost every week and to stir the pot for more discussion. When I get no comments on things I write I often feel no one is reading my posts and that I'm wasting my time. I appreciate your input when I post things even if it's negative. I guess what I'm saying is, If you like or dislike my posts say something bad or good. I can take it but I do have better uses for my time if no one is listening.

My second opinion of the day.

Max

PS--If anyone notices, I sign my name Maxie when I'm non-serious and Max when I'm serious.

[Zyx]

I read your posts, and it wasn't you I was referring to.

[michael_perrett]

Those who try to discredit God's Holy Word, do so in a vain attempt to justify their ungodly life.

Michael Perrett