Spark help

[Rusty]

Hi all, been awhile. I won't give details due to pending lawsuit, but I got into an accident with the hodaka. I finally got around to starting her up again and no spark. New plug, points set and ignition disconnected. Just have blue and black going to coil. When I opened the case a ton of water poured out. I removed the stator. It's was pretty rusty, I cleaned All the parts. The question I have is when I put the point back together I could not remember the configuration of the washers. There are two brass washers. I have it currently as follows. Split washer, regular, brass, point wire ,brass, fiber, the fiber sleeve, then through to the other side, fiber, regular then nut. Hope that makes sense. I saw a faint spark then nothing. Might clean everything again. Thanks

[Rusty]

Found a set of points laying around. Bout to mount this back up and see if I get some spark!

[Rusty]

Whelp break time. Put it all back together. Set points to .013 got a glimmer of spark and then nothing?? Time to get the multimeter and manual out I reckon

[Zyx]

I won't ask how it got full of water. But the fact that it was, suggests to me that the entire system needs diagnostic verification. Coil resistance, condenser capacitance, no shorts or grounds where they don't belong, and so on. Corrosion inside the primary coil could cause a failure you can't see, but could detect with an ohm meter. Condenser is probably shot. Just assume all parts are suspect, and go through it one part at a time.

[Rusty]

I have a multimeter I don't quite grasp the instructions in the manual. It sat after the accident. I finally got around to looking at it. Was out of town and had some pretty major rain storms

[Zyx]

Primary and secondary coils have ohm ratings. Simple resistance. Isolate each coil so that all you are reading is the one coils at a time. Primary coil is under the magneto, secondary under the gas tank. Condenser is rated in farads and should also be isolated. Points should show now resistance closed, infinite when open. Very simple, straight forward multi meter stuff and the numbers are posted on the website and are in the shop manual.

Also, the inner surface of the flywheel has to be rust free, same with the ends of the coil core. Essentially, everything has to be clean and free of defect. Sitting in water is bad for just about everything in there, but everything can be cleaned and verified, so it isn't the end of the world. If you don't have a flywheel puller, get one. Using the wrong tool will bugger things.

Take off the flywheel, and disassemble the coils, condenser, and points. Check each part one at a time. Reassemble only if everything checks out. If you have questions as you go, take pictures, and ask questions.

[Rusty]

Thanks. What are the neg and lead on the coils?

[Zyx]

Say again?

[Darrell]

I won't ask how it got full of water. But the fact that it was, suggests to me that the entire system needs diagnostic verification. Coil resistance, condenser capacitance, no shorts or grounds where they don't belong, and so on. Corrosion inside the primary coil could cause a failure you can't see, but could detect with an ohm meter. Condenser is probably shot. Just assume all parts are suspect, and go through it one part at a time.

Hodaka magneto covers appear to condensate heavily -- amount varies depending on the climate, I suppose. My Wombat's magneto cover was half full of water after it had sat inside a barn for 35 years. The circlip on points had rusted away and I should have replaced the submerged condenser right away as it went into a gradual decline as soon as I started riding the bike. Coils seem fine, I probably dropped them in 100% alcohol to dry them out.

I semi-regularly loosen the magneto covers on my Wombat and 250SL; invariably a bit of water dribbles out every time. Way back I used to see car distributor caps condensate until it killed the engine. Vented distributor caps solved this problem. Someday I might tap vents in to the magneto covers and run breather snorkels under the tank.

Also try apply some Shoe Goo, or equivalent around the wing grommet to prevent any external water ingress.

[taber hodaka]

If it ran a short time back a few months, and if it is wet now wipe it off, blow dry it out with air, use a little some wd40. It will probably run, At most you might need a new set of points. My guess----------Clarence

[Charlie R]

OK, the purists here will not like this suggestion but in the old days it was common to drill the bottom of the shifter case (or even the center cases under the flywheel) to allow heat to escape (condensers love this) and allows the magneto case to "breathe". I'll try to post up some pics of how I do this mod to my race motors.

It is imperative that you seal the grommet at the top of the cases with silicone and also silicone the shifter case to the center cases. I also silicone the metal inner gasket to the shifter case as well.

EDIT.....Darrell, you and I are on the same wave length. Sorry to basically repeat your post

[Zyx]

Drilling a drain hole is okay as long as you understand that it is there and stay out of deep water, and remove the cover regularly. I would not trust it to eliminate condensation though. Condensation occurs with changes in temperature which draw moisture out of the air to the cool metal, forming droplets or sweat. That moisture is very unlikely to drain out the bottom unless small droplets merge to form running drops. That would be a lot of condensation. Otherwise, all the extra hole is doing is defeating the silicon sealant you put in other places by allowing air to pass into the cover when the engine cools. Also, consider that if the bike is parked on a kickstand, a drain hole at the case cover junction would be uphill from the cover low point. A drain would have to be out at the outside bottom to work at all.

I do seal the grommet, but not the side cover. First, it has a steel gasket that would have to be sealed on both sides to have any effect. Second, sealing the cover only guarantees that the moisture that is already inside the cover stays inside the cover, where it will be driven back and forth from condensation to air borne depending on temperatures. I leave it be and take the cover off regularly to clean. I have run 50 mile cross country events with deep water on the course without water incursion, and without silicone sealant. Third, silicon is a beatch to remove, so if you put it there, you have to clean it each time you disassemble it. If you feel the need to seal the gasket surface around the magneto, use a light smear of grease. It will discourage water and not be so hard to keep clean, plus it is far more flexible than cured silicone.

The best suggestion is a vent. But unless you have a reliable duck bill on the end of the tube, the vent will also allow air into the cover. At the end of the day, you have air in there, and can't keep air out, so you still have to take it apart from time to time. Leaving the cover off, or loose, until time to ride works as well as anything.

As for the mag cover becoming half full of water just from sitting around, I doubt it. Mine sat on the deck of my house in Alaska under a leaky tarp 24/7 for over 20 years. It did not accumulate water at all, and showed only a light film of corrosion caused by condensation, and no, I didn't take the cover off during that time. It was rained on, snowed on, and generally sat in the shade without being started more than once a year, and sometimes all I did was kick it over occasionally without starting it, but aside from the seat taking a beating, water wasn't a problem and there was none inside the mag cover. Once the cover is on tight only the moisture already inside the cover is there to condense out, and it goes back and forth but can't increase without a resupply.

[Rusty]

I did give it a really good cleaning. It had new points and a condenser. I will pull out the multi meter and pull off the coils. I let my friend borrow my soldering iron though.

[Zyx]

The suggestion to clean with alcohol is a good one in that alcohol picks up water. WD40 displaces water. Both can be put to good use in cleaning wound lacquered coils.

[Zyx]

Thanks. What are the neg and lead on the coils?

Not sure I follow. Are you asking which is positive and which negative? If so I guess I would say neither, as the coil generates AC voltage.

[Bullfrog]

I'm a bit concerned about an extended soak in alcohol out of a fear of its effect on the varnish insulation on the coil windings. A relatively quick dunk and dry -- say 30 second dunk or so -- ought to be OK. And could probably be repeated if thought necessary.

However, a day or two in a sunny window would dry out a coil too, without any concerns about chemical interactions.

Ed

[Zyx]

Although cured lacquer is generally impervious to denatured alcohol, I agree that this is not a long soak situation, just a dunk and flush to get grime and oily residue out of crevices.

[Rusty]

Thanks for all the info. Yes I was asking where to attach my leads. I did not remove the coils completely. But I used wd40 steel wool and fine sandpaper. All is clean. Cleaned the inside of the fly wheel. I pulled out the multi meter attached leads to the yellow wire and the end of the coil at the brass washer. On 200 0hm setting it read .8 ohms. With setting at 20k lead in high tension lead spark wire and either the blue or black wire I get 5.8k. I'm familiar with electrolytic caps, how and can I measure the condenser while it's still soldered in. Thanks and any other tests?

[viclioce]

Also be sure to check the condition of your woodruff key for the magneto/flywheel. It's located on the crankshaft and holds the magneto in place.

Mine wore down so badly I couldn't time the bike correctly until I replaced it. It's worth checking. If it rusted it may brake or already have broken. Just one more thing in the myriad of things to check. The woodruff key holds the magneto in place so timing is possible. If it's worn and not much is there, or if it's gone, you need to replace it.

I would also reccomend that you check your capacitor because it can get beat up by water. It needs to be in good shape and have a better than good solder connection to the wires providing spark to the motor. ; D Victor

[Rusty]

Thanks woodruff key is find. Need to figure out how to test the condenser.

[Zyx]

Your ohm readings are correct and within spec. The condenser has to be disconnected, but not unsoldered, so the lead going to the secondary has to be unplugged, and the points wire disconnected. That completely isolates the condenser. Also check it for shorts to ground. So far, so good.

[Rusty]

Thanks, when I get some money, so broke right now, I think I'll just buy a new condenser if I have to unsolder it to test. I used to make my own guitar pedals and I understand electrolytic caps hold a charge. So I can see how if it got wet it could damage it. The points are brand new, but they are at the top and look fine.

[Zyx]

You don't have to unsolder it but you do have to isolate the condenser so it isn't in circuit with the coils. You may be able to test it in place with the points open and connected to the coils, but I haven't field tested the notion so am not sure.

Repetitive soldering on the condenser is not good for the condenser. Too easy to overheat it and perforate the dielectric film inside.

[Zyx]

I gave this a try on my 100B. Pull the flywheel, unplug the coil lead (blue and black) going to the secondary coil, remove the retaining screw on the condenser and lift it free of contact, open the points with a nonconductor or pull the points. Then read the capacitance using the capacitor body and solder point. I was able to read mine without unsoldering.

[Rusty]

Hello thanks. The magneto is fully removed. I set my multi at 20mf and got no reading as per your instuctions. I also tested a magneto from a b+ in the same manner and got no reading?