Ace B+ vs Road Toad

[relic]

Winter is getting a little annoying here, (understatement) as it drags on and on and that often leads to my thinking too much. My B+ project is running and little can be done until some of the ground/road starts to show through. Then I can test ride for unforeseen issues. Until then I will spend too much time on the inter-web and that leads to questions for the group as I continue to learn.

Am I correct in assuming that the model 02 and the 03 are pretty much the same motorcycle other than the displacement?

I see several mentions of running premix in the oil injected models. Are Hodaka injection pumps more prone to failure than other brands? I've rarely heard of a total failure with Yamaha's (for example---I have a DT400C) and most riders continue to use them unless racing etc.

And finally, would you say the Toad is much superior to the B+ ? I realize it is oil injected, reed valved and has a different frame and new design motor but do these features add up to much better performance?

Curious Ken

[BrianZ]

The biggest difference between the early Toad and the late Toad is the wheel size with the later models having the more normal 18 and 21 inch wheels.

In my opinion the Toad is a much better bike than the Ace. The chassis is based on the Super Combat and the handling is much better. The aluminum cylinder with reed valve gives it a much nicer power delivery. A lot of Hodaka folk aren't crazy about the Toad because it lacks the traditional Hodaka styling with the red frame and chrome tank, but I actually prefer it. Depends on individual tastes I guess.

As for the oil pump, I think it was made by Mikuni. I haven't heard of any reliability issues, but if you are using premix you don't have to be concerned about 30+ oil pump components failing and ruining your engine.

Brian

[viclioce]

I have a finished 1971 Ace 100 B+ and am completing 2 Model 99 Road Toads. I've ridden the Ace but not the Toads yet. Soon I'll be able to give you my opinions on the difference between the two. The Model 99 Toads have the 18/19 rear/front wheels on one and 17/19 on the other. So one is going to be slightly taller than the other, but only by 1/2"! So I don't see it as a big difference in height. The Toads also are Reed valves while the Ace is not. So there is an assumed performance superiority with the Toads. Time will tell! ; D Victor

[socalhodaka]

I prefer the pump on my 03.

[socalhodaka]

[matt glascock]

Dig the Bad Rock decal. I know there is a lot of secret stuff lurking within that docile 94 facade! Daddy, why do his forks look bigger than mine?

[socalhodaka]

I think the lipped rims give it that biggly look.

[relic]

Thanks all. I agree Brian, I really like the looks of the later Toad and the last Wombat with the coffin tanks. (none lurking around your area is there?)
And I like the injection; no need to carry oil on longer rides. Don't get me wrong, I love the chrome tank Hodakas and no arguing, the red frame, chrome tank IS Hodaka. I'm just thinking about my next "gotta have" motorcycle and lately 02 Toads and 03 Wombats are sneaking up the list.

Vic, you will have to do a comprehensive comparison report for us after you have the Toads running. Sorry to ask you to spend lots of time riding your Hodakas; hopefully not too much of a hardship?

Socal, is that a model 03 with 94 cosmetics? Or? Its a super nice looking bike for sure.

Ken

[hodakamax]

Just some comments. I sold lots of B+ bikes and the ones before them and after. It's hard to compare which is best when you factor in the later technology. I was out of the Hodaka business by Road Toad time. The model 95 Combat Wombats were the last bikes I ordered, sold and rode. I did rebuild a Road Toad engine for a friend a few years ago and was impressed by the improvements in technology. The cylinder was something we needed in the racing days. Large ports, aluminum cylinder heat transfer, reed valve and larger carb along with oil injection. I also liked the large beefy base gasket area. Time brings improvements and the Road Toad had many. I'm not an oil injection fan but I suppose it is a convenience. I removed his during the rebuild. Both were the technology of the time so to me there's really no winners. Technology usually improves things and it's hard to compare things from different times. Both worked. In reality we can only accept them for what they were at the time. All obvious of course but I was impressed by the changes in the Road Toad design. I would have really liked to have one of those cylinders in the days of flat track racing. Those poor souls would of had even a less chance of beating the already dominant Hodaka. Ha ha ha. Just being mean (and truthful!)

You asked for my opinion and there it is!

Maxie

[socalhodaka]

Socal, is that a model 03 with 94 cosmetics? Or? Its a super nice looking bike for sure.

Ken

Ken, yes its an 03 with 94 cosmetics, CW rims, Honda seat, Yamaha pipe and headlight. I will be riding it on the VJMC Route 66 tiddler ride in a few weeks, I thinks its around 100 mile ride.

[Bullfrog]

A cursory review:
100 B+ : SHORT wheelbase, iron cylinder, piston-port, ACE type crankshaft and clutch, standard chrome slider forks, piston-port induction with pre-mix fuel
Model 99 Road Toad : new frame, longer wheelbase, primary kick-start, reed-valve induction and oil injection, Alumiferric cylinder, standard chrome slider forks, 125 size crank and clutch, same wheel sizes as 100-B+
Model 02 Road Toad : same as 99 except full size wheels
Model 03 Wombat : Redone frame (not the same as Toads), slightly longer wheelbase, full size (34mm) forks with alloy sliders (biggest and heaviest of any of the 4 models being discussed here - AND the best suspension), alloy cylinder, primary kick, reeds, oil injection, full size wheels
Ed

[hodakamax]

OK, I forgot to mention primary kick start. By that time in life I had become incredibly proficient at finding Hodaka neutral. Not a problem or advantage at least to me. I think you also develop a special need as a racer to not stall the engine. Just some observations from ancient past.

Maxie

[BrianZ]

Nice summation Ed.

I forgot about the primary start, which I consider a nice thing to have on a woods bike. When I was was racing vintage hare scrambles we would often have a dead engine start. Racing a bike that you had to kick start, grab the clutch, shift into first, then release the clutch to get going, pretty much guaranteed you were behind the bikes with primary kick starts.

Relic, I have only seen one coffin tank Hodaka in Ontario (I know you are out there Kent!). If you ever find a Toad to restore, get in touch. I have two I am working on and I may be able to help you out.

My Toad race bike puts more smiles on my face than any other dirt bike I have ridden.

Brian

[mac]

I have to admit that a Toad or 03 Wombat is the Hodaka that I really want to find.I love my chrome tankers,but for doing some dual sports or local hare scrambles(they have a small vintage class) I would really like a Toad,but would settle on a 03 wombat because of their upgrades.

Are the 94 Wombat and Toad frames pretty much the same?

Also,how does the 03 frame differ from them?

[deward66]

I am building an Ace 100. I have installer the aluminum cylinder , head, reed valve carb. and air cleaner off the 02 toad toad. I am using the non oil injected bottom end as I don't care for the oil injection. Haven't started the motor yet but will this month.

[Bullfrog]

Gosh I can't remember the detailed info - but the 03 frame is just a bit larger than the 02 frame. Slightly wider at the swing arm pivot (I think) with a longer swing arm. And a bit heavier. Primary differences relate to the full size (34mm tube dia.) forks which were standard for the 03. Adjustments had to be made for the longer legs than had been used for ALL the previous 100 and 125cc machines.
Ed

[Bullfrog]

Installing an alloy cylinder on an ACE 100 bottom end is no small feat. It is definitely not a "bolt on".
Ed

[RichardMott]

When it comes to Ace bikes, that is what I learned to woods ride on. When it came time to get something faster, I reeded the Ace B+ in 1974.
Fast forward 30 years. My Ace is now a trials bike. So I was out a woods bike. That's when I decided to make my own Hodaka that would meet my objectives. An Ace frame with an 03 motor. A WomAce. Primary kick, 125 power with a reed valve. Motor bolted right in with only a minor frame mod.

WomAce 125

[mac]

That is a pretty cool bike Rick.

[relic]

Lots of great info and bikes! Thanks for all the replies.

Thanks for setting me straight on the 02 /03 differences Ed. They certainly look identical. Sounds like the later Wombat would suit my riding very well. I do very little true off road stuff but spend lots of time running the gravel roads. Some are maintained but many are logging access roads that can be very rough. I also commute ten miles each way on a combination of gravel and hard packed roads. The ability to cruise at 50mph would be a great advantage for me as there is one highway posted at 80kph (50mph) that runs to a large island that I like to ride. Its a very laid back, quiet area and just perfect for poking around on old motorcycles. But you have to get there first.

Love that "Womace" Rick. Quite a project to have it turn out looking like a bike the factory could have built.

Brian; I was talking to Kent (via e-mail) yesterday. Yes he has the Toad he bought at Mid Ohio and he knows of another not far from his home. He tried that fellow with some offers but no luck. He sent me a photo of the bike and its in need of an "everything" plus has no title.

On the Hodaka Face Book page someone from western Canada posted a pic of a low mile Toad that had been for sale near him. Looks like an excellent motorcycle for the price. But its 2500 miles from me and I don't know anyone close to help me out with the purchase. And the cost of getting it to me would negate the decent asking price. If do I manage to pick one up I'll let you know, thanks for the offer of help.

To all who mentioned the primary kick start, thanks. That would be another nice advantage. Along with the shift pattern I'm used to.
I think my desire for either of these models (02 Toad or 03 Wombat) has grown.

Ken

[viclioce]

The Model 03 Wombat is fairly tall in the saddle! Just so you know, I'm 5' 9" and have a 29" inseam & I can't reach the ground flat footed on my Model 03 frame & standard wheels. It has great ground clearance, a plus for trail riding, but if you don't have longer legs, you'll be sliding off one side of the seat to reach the ground when stopping. Victor

[relic]

Gee Victor, just how many Hodakas do you have? Thanks for the seat height info. I'm 5-8 with 30" shorty legs. In the past I've ridden some tall bikes, a DR650 and then a DR750, both in excess of 33 inches. I recently sold the 750 mostly because as I age I find my balance is not as good. The DR Big held 29 liters of gas. The weight up that high and the seat height combined to provide some less than confident feeling at times. And being uncomfortable is not worth the trouble anymore.
Ken

[hodakamax]

Ken, I'm with you. I always wanted a KLR-650 dual purpose thing so I bought one a couple of years ago and tricked it out a bit with tires, a real skid plate, exhaust and basic luggage. With my 30" inseam and as you said, the fuel at the highest point, this thing was nothing but a handful, even on the street. I think these bikes are for Big Ole Boys. A couple of tip-overs in the woods and I was cured of that machine. I also went to a BMW dealer and checked out the big GS-1xxx which scared me just sitting on it in the showroom. Why would you want an extra 300# to go off road riding? What a treat it was after that to blast some trails on the Wombat. What was I thinking?

Yet another observation,

Max

[Bill2001]

Agreed. I briefly toyed with the notion of getting a KLR-class dual-sport bike but never could warm up to it. Too heavy, too tall (30" inseam too) and no soul. They--and especially the BMW GS-class-- are the SUVs of offroad bikes.

I like my Hodie with all of it's quirks and foibles.

[socalhodaka]

I dig my SUV and my Hodakas