Ace 100 transmission tech question
Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:35 am
Kreig - 07/18/08 at 8:03pm
I just picked up my "new" Ace 100. The former owner pointed out that the transmission "needs an adjustment". The tranny will shift into first OK, but when you upshift from first, it seems to go into a higher gear than second.
The former owner told me he took the engine cover off the shifter lever side to troubleshoot an oil leak and he thinks he re-installed it incorrectly.
Could this cause the shifting issue? Is there anything else I should look for? I bought an Ace 100 shop manual from Paul and I'm mechanically competent on newer bikes (top end replacements, rings, valve check/adjustments, carb-ectomies, etc.)
Thanks in advance for any help
___________________________________________________________________________________________
dirtsquirt80 - 07/19/08 at 12:59am
It could be a spring problem on the inside on the control shaft. The shop manual for the 125 shows you how to replace them. it's not hard. but I'm sure bullfrog will have some other ideas. hopefully anyway. thank's Scott
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Bullfrog - 07/19/08 at 1:43am
Put the bike up on a milk crate and remove the spark plug (so the engine will turn over easily).
Remove the inspection window on the shift cover.
Sit down beside the bike so you have a clear view inside the shift cover at the end of the control shaft.
Now shift up and down through the gears while spinning the rear wheel with your other hand. Watch the end of the control shaft. The shift mechanism is supposed to "place" the end of the control shaft right where it is supposed to be to engage each gear . . . but you will likely see the control shaft pop "in" (toward the center line of the engine) or pop "out" (away from the center line of the engine) as several gears get engaged.
Does it pop "in" way more often than it pops "out"? If so, that tells you to adjust the shifter arm eccentric bolt to move the sliding key "in" a bit. (and vice-versa) After making the adjustment, repeat the process of running thru the gears while spinning the rear wheel by hand (multiple times to get the true "feel" of what is happening). What changed? Did you adjust too far "in"? Re-adjust and recheck. This is the "trial and error" method of adjustment.
NOTE: If it simply won't adjust to shift properly - that is a PRIME indication that the control shaft springs and/or ball receiver need to be replaced.
There is a way to "feel" for a collapsed control shaft spring . . . but I don't have the time to type the process out tonight.
I'll be watching for a description of what you find (but not tomorrow).
and, oh, Keep the rubber side down!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
bobwhitman - 07/19/08 at 1:46am
First, take off the shift case. Three screws (use the CORRECT size impact driver Phillips bit). Click the shifter so the arm (visible thru the little inspection hole, whose cover you also removed) is all the way out (1st gear position. Rock the rear wheel & pull the shift shaft roller all the way out. Reinstall cover, using care to connect the arm's little sliding pin with the spool on the end of the shaft. You've just ensured that it is assembled right. As you do this check to be sure your shifter case isn't worn excessively where the shaft passes thru it; if it is, you need to have the case rebushed.
Now adjust the transmission as described in your manual (my Ave 90 manual spells the process out using either a "trial & error" method or a measurement method. I've had better luck with the trial & error method - a bit tedious but it works). If this does not produce proper engagement, you'll need to replace your shift springs with the little kit sold here at SH. They can be replaced by laying the bike on its left side without draining the oil or splitting the cases.
More info on shifters is available on the Yahoo Hodaka site under files, FAQ.
Also, do what Ed described as I was typing my suggestions out. Guess he types faster!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
hodakaronwa - 07/19/08 at 12:57pm
To sheck if the ball receiver springs have collapsed?
Here is what I do though this does not tell you if the actual ball receiver is worn or beat up beyond useful life.
Do as previously mentioned.
Place the bike on a crate or something which will safely support the bike with the rear wheel off the ground.
Remove the shifter cover, Pull the shifter rod or push until the engine is positively in gear. put a bit of tension on the rear wheel with one hand, just enough to load the balls snugly around whatever gear your in. Now with the other hand gently pull or push the shifter rod. You can feel the spring tension in either direction, about 1/4" but there should be no slack in either direction before spring tension is felt. If there is slack! you probably have a collapsed spring.
Now a Hodaka transmission is s very reliable unit when all is in good condition but all components of the shifting mechanism must be within tolerance.
This is to include the ball receiver and springs,and the shifter cover itself. Hey these engines are over 30 years old and most likely they have been through many owners and riding conditions.
The good news, is that most likely your problem is on the outside and it is not necessary to remove the engine from the frame to make the repairs or adjustment.
Overshifting is most often an adjustment and like ED mentioned, just watching what is happening is probably the best way to understand the simplicity of the whole thing.
Read the manual and do your own research and you will become an expert, look at the pictures and relate with reality.
The shifter covers just plain get worn out over time and require some components to be replaced and rebushed which is not all that complicated nor time consuming. Nor is the replacement of the ball receiver and springs.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Kreig - 07/19/08 at 7:04pm
OK, I finally got some time to ride this thing around for a shakedown cruise. Despite what the former owner told me, the tranny seems to shift fine through the first 4 gears but will sometimes fail to go into... or pop out of 5th.
The guy said he only rode the bike one or two times so I'm wondering if he knew the tranny shifts reverse of newer trannys? I still plan to use the suggestions listed in this thread just to get some experience on the shifting adjustments.
I'm wondering if the 5th gear issue my be solved by following the suggestions as well.
Thanks again for all the help!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
sachs175 - 07/20/08 at 11:12am
Krieg,
Try the adjustment first per ED , then if that does not work check the shift springs condition , Per Bob and Ron. Get a shop Manual, that will help a lot and keep you out of trouble.
Don't try shifting it with the engine running and the shifter case off though. If you do that you stand a fair chance of joining a select group. One that is missing a bit off 1 or 2 fingers. chuckle chuckle.
I have the dubious honor to belong to that select group.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
hodakaronwa - 07/20/08 at 3:43pm
Kreig
I believe we have all covered just about any shifting problem which could occur. Sometimes the simplicity of the whole thing will throw you for a loop.
If it is popping out of 5th gear, it may not be going all the way into 5th gear to begin with? Or you have a collapsed spring on the left side of the ball receiver. Or your shifting cover mechanisms are worn out.
You can change the shift pattern with a later shift cover
such as from the 94 wombat.
And do please! keep your fingers out of the chain and sprockets.
Your problem is still on the outside and not necessary to disassemble the cases.
Those two arms which contact the shifter rod which are bolted side by side? That bolt which retains them together is actually an eccentric adjustment. It takes a pair of small 10mm wrenches to access that bolt. I usually remove the steel plate's retaining screws and make adjustments from the inside where is more easier accessed. I don't put the screws back in until I have my adjustment where I want it. But make sure you always put the steel cover back in place while the adjustment is being tried. Without the screws the cover will still be in the right place and just the three shifter cover mounting screws will hold the whole thing together. That steel cover is needed to be in place as it's thickness can throw off your adjustment.
Be sure to replace those screws when you are satisfied.
The shifting rod when all the way to the left is in 1st gear, push it in a bit will be neutral, push it in a bit more and you will engage second and so on. 5th is all the way in. Turning that eccentric bolt spreads the shifter arms out of parallel in either direction. This is what does the actual adjustment. The shift rod is what the ball receiver or spreader is attached to. There is a spring on each side of the ball spreader which keeps the ball spreader centered so a proper adjustment can be made.
I think you have enough information to cure your problem.
If you have to replace the ball receiver and springs you may want to purchase a special tool which assists in the installation of the retaining clip for the ball receiver components. But it can and has been accomplished without the special tool. I have had the same special tool for over 35 years and it has paid for itself many times over.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Kreig - 07/24/08 at 9:09pm
First of all... THANKS to all who offered tips on adjusting my shifter. I followed Ed's procedure to the letter and got my tranny working perfectly! I knew something was up when I went to loosen the locking bolt and it was already loose enough to almost turn by hand.
Thanks again to all who offered such great advice!
Now I have another Hodaka newbie question:
After riding several miles to check my tranny adjustments, I noticed the left side (shift lever side) of the engine seemed to be leaking a black oily spooge. It's almost like the chain has been over-lubed but I'm sure that's not the case. I cleaned up the black stuff from the frame and rode again for a mile or two and it came back. This time I noticed it was flinging on to the chain guard, the rear rim and the left side engine cover.
I'm thinking counter shaft seal is shot. I'm hoping the experts can give me some advice.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Bullfrog - 07/25/08 at 3:35am
Note that a loose sprocket nut will also allow leakage - as will a worn(grooved at the seal lip) sprocket collar (the spacer bushing immediately behind the sprocket) even if the counter shaft seal is not worn out. Of course, if the sprocket collar is grooved, the seal probably is worn out too.
Also, the O-ring which seals around the control shaft can harden/wear and start to leak.
So check the sprocket nut for tightness . . . and check to see that the oil isn't coming out the center of the countershaft. Although everything which might need to be replaced to eliminate oil leakage can replaced without splitting the cases . . . so it isn't terribly important to spend a lot of time trying to figure out which thing is leaking - cuz you can fix 'em all w/o a major teardown.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Kreig - 07/26/08 at 7:01pm
Thanks Ed. Today I yanked the shift-side cover and found the sprocket nut loose enough to turn by hand. I tightened it and things seem to be leak free at the moment. I plan to ride the Hodie tomorrow on a several mile trail ride, so we'll see how things hold up. Thanks again for the expert advice!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
END OF THREAD
I just picked up my "new" Ace 100. The former owner pointed out that the transmission "needs an adjustment". The tranny will shift into first OK, but when you upshift from first, it seems to go into a higher gear than second.
The former owner told me he took the engine cover off the shifter lever side to troubleshoot an oil leak and he thinks he re-installed it incorrectly.
Could this cause the shifting issue? Is there anything else I should look for? I bought an Ace 100 shop manual from Paul and I'm mechanically competent on newer bikes (top end replacements, rings, valve check/adjustments, carb-ectomies, etc.)
Thanks in advance for any help
___________________________________________________________________________________________
dirtsquirt80 - 07/19/08 at 12:59am
It could be a spring problem on the inside on the control shaft. The shop manual for the 125 shows you how to replace them. it's not hard. but I'm sure bullfrog will have some other ideas. hopefully anyway. thank's Scott
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Bullfrog - 07/19/08 at 1:43am
Put the bike up on a milk crate and remove the spark plug (so the engine will turn over easily).
Remove the inspection window on the shift cover.
Sit down beside the bike so you have a clear view inside the shift cover at the end of the control shaft.
Now shift up and down through the gears while spinning the rear wheel with your other hand. Watch the end of the control shaft. The shift mechanism is supposed to "place" the end of the control shaft right where it is supposed to be to engage each gear . . . but you will likely see the control shaft pop "in" (toward the center line of the engine) or pop "out" (away from the center line of the engine) as several gears get engaged.
Does it pop "in" way more often than it pops "out"? If so, that tells you to adjust the shifter arm eccentric bolt to move the sliding key "in" a bit. (and vice-versa) After making the adjustment, repeat the process of running thru the gears while spinning the rear wheel by hand (multiple times to get the true "feel" of what is happening). What changed? Did you adjust too far "in"? Re-adjust and recheck. This is the "trial and error" method of adjustment.
NOTE: If it simply won't adjust to shift properly - that is a PRIME indication that the control shaft springs and/or ball receiver need to be replaced.
There is a way to "feel" for a collapsed control shaft spring . . . but I don't have the time to type the process out tonight.
I'll be watching for a description of what you find (but not tomorrow).
and, oh, Keep the rubber side down!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
bobwhitman - 07/19/08 at 1:46am
First, take off the shift case. Three screws (use the CORRECT size impact driver Phillips bit). Click the shifter so the arm (visible thru the little inspection hole, whose cover you also removed) is all the way out (1st gear position. Rock the rear wheel & pull the shift shaft roller all the way out. Reinstall cover, using care to connect the arm's little sliding pin with the spool on the end of the shaft. You've just ensured that it is assembled right. As you do this check to be sure your shifter case isn't worn excessively where the shaft passes thru it; if it is, you need to have the case rebushed.
Now adjust the transmission as described in your manual (my Ave 90 manual spells the process out using either a "trial & error" method or a measurement method. I've had better luck with the trial & error method - a bit tedious but it works). If this does not produce proper engagement, you'll need to replace your shift springs with the little kit sold here at SH. They can be replaced by laying the bike on its left side without draining the oil or splitting the cases.
More info on shifters is available on the Yahoo Hodaka site under files, FAQ.
Also, do what Ed described as I was typing my suggestions out. Guess he types faster!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
hodakaronwa - 07/19/08 at 12:57pm
To sheck if the ball receiver springs have collapsed?
Here is what I do though this does not tell you if the actual ball receiver is worn or beat up beyond useful life.
Do as previously mentioned.
Place the bike on a crate or something which will safely support the bike with the rear wheel off the ground.
Remove the shifter cover, Pull the shifter rod or push until the engine is positively in gear. put a bit of tension on the rear wheel with one hand, just enough to load the balls snugly around whatever gear your in. Now with the other hand gently pull or push the shifter rod. You can feel the spring tension in either direction, about 1/4" but there should be no slack in either direction before spring tension is felt. If there is slack! you probably have a collapsed spring.
Now a Hodaka transmission is s very reliable unit when all is in good condition but all components of the shifting mechanism must be within tolerance.
This is to include the ball receiver and springs,and the shifter cover itself. Hey these engines are over 30 years old and most likely they have been through many owners and riding conditions.
The good news, is that most likely your problem is on the outside and it is not necessary to remove the engine from the frame to make the repairs or adjustment.
Overshifting is most often an adjustment and like ED mentioned, just watching what is happening is probably the best way to understand the simplicity of the whole thing.
Read the manual and do your own research and you will become an expert, look at the pictures and relate with reality.
The shifter covers just plain get worn out over time and require some components to be replaced and rebushed which is not all that complicated nor time consuming. Nor is the replacement of the ball receiver and springs.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Kreig - 07/19/08 at 7:04pm
OK, I finally got some time to ride this thing around for a shakedown cruise. Despite what the former owner told me, the tranny seems to shift fine through the first 4 gears but will sometimes fail to go into... or pop out of 5th.
The guy said he only rode the bike one or two times so I'm wondering if he knew the tranny shifts reverse of newer trannys? I still plan to use the suggestions listed in this thread just to get some experience on the shifting adjustments.
I'm wondering if the 5th gear issue my be solved by following the suggestions as well.
Thanks again for all the help!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
sachs175 - 07/20/08 at 11:12am
Krieg,
Try the adjustment first per ED , then if that does not work check the shift springs condition , Per Bob and Ron. Get a shop Manual, that will help a lot and keep you out of trouble.
Don't try shifting it with the engine running and the shifter case off though. If you do that you stand a fair chance of joining a select group. One that is missing a bit off 1 or 2 fingers. chuckle chuckle.
I have the dubious honor to belong to that select group.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
hodakaronwa - 07/20/08 at 3:43pm
Kreig
I believe we have all covered just about any shifting problem which could occur. Sometimes the simplicity of the whole thing will throw you for a loop.
If it is popping out of 5th gear, it may not be going all the way into 5th gear to begin with? Or you have a collapsed spring on the left side of the ball receiver. Or your shifting cover mechanisms are worn out.
You can change the shift pattern with a later shift cover
such as from the 94 wombat.
And do please! keep your fingers out of the chain and sprockets.
Your problem is still on the outside and not necessary to disassemble the cases.
Those two arms which contact the shifter rod which are bolted side by side? That bolt which retains them together is actually an eccentric adjustment. It takes a pair of small 10mm wrenches to access that bolt. I usually remove the steel plate's retaining screws and make adjustments from the inside where is more easier accessed. I don't put the screws back in until I have my adjustment where I want it. But make sure you always put the steel cover back in place while the adjustment is being tried. Without the screws the cover will still be in the right place and just the three shifter cover mounting screws will hold the whole thing together. That steel cover is needed to be in place as it's thickness can throw off your adjustment.
Be sure to replace those screws when you are satisfied.
The shifting rod when all the way to the left is in 1st gear, push it in a bit will be neutral, push it in a bit more and you will engage second and so on. 5th is all the way in. Turning that eccentric bolt spreads the shifter arms out of parallel in either direction. This is what does the actual adjustment. The shift rod is what the ball receiver or spreader is attached to. There is a spring on each side of the ball spreader which keeps the ball spreader centered so a proper adjustment can be made.
I think you have enough information to cure your problem.
If you have to replace the ball receiver and springs you may want to purchase a special tool which assists in the installation of the retaining clip for the ball receiver components. But it can and has been accomplished without the special tool. I have had the same special tool for over 35 years and it has paid for itself many times over.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Kreig - 07/24/08 at 9:09pm
First of all... THANKS to all who offered tips on adjusting my shifter. I followed Ed's procedure to the letter and got my tranny working perfectly! I knew something was up when I went to loosen the locking bolt and it was already loose enough to almost turn by hand.
Thanks again to all who offered such great advice!
Now I have another Hodaka newbie question:
After riding several miles to check my tranny adjustments, I noticed the left side (shift lever side) of the engine seemed to be leaking a black oily spooge. It's almost like the chain has been over-lubed but I'm sure that's not the case. I cleaned up the black stuff from the frame and rode again for a mile or two and it came back. This time I noticed it was flinging on to the chain guard, the rear rim and the left side engine cover.
I'm thinking counter shaft seal is shot. I'm hoping the experts can give me some advice.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Bullfrog - 07/25/08 at 3:35am
Note that a loose sprocket nut will also allow leakage - as will a worn(grooved at the seal lip) sprocket collar (the spacer bushing immediately behind the sprocket) even if the counter shaft seal is not worn out. Of course, if the sprocket collar is grooved, the seal probably is worn out too.
Also, the O-ring which seals around the control shaft can harden/wear and start to leak.
So check the sprocket nut for tightness . . . and check to see that the oil isn't coming out the center of the countershaft. Although everything which might need to be replaced to eliminate oil leakage can replaced without splitting the cases . . . so it isn't terribly important to spend a lot of time trying to figure out which thing is leaking - cuz you can fix 'em all w/o a major teardown.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Kreig - 07/26/08 at 7:01pm
Thanks Ed. Today I yanked the shift-side cover and found the sprocket nut loose enough to turn by hand. I tightened it and things seem to be leak free at the moment. I plan to ride the Hodie tomorrow on a several mile trail ride, so we'll see how things hold up. Thanks again for the expert advice!
___________________________________________________________________________________________
END OF THREAD