The Hodaka Club Forum

Roger Up Da I eat crow. to each of you I am wrong Mentally I should not be thinking. Roger you were correct are correct I gave the bogus advice . Thanks to all the friends that cut me a little slack -------------Clarence

Clarence! I always say: It gets worse, I was wrong a few days ago too-- Slack given!
Your friend,
Old Max

Setting the timing by adjusting the points gap leaves you with an assumption about just where the timing is set. Setting by point break at the timing mark gives a precise timing adjustment. Which is why the points gap method specifies a range of settings. Clearly the timing will not be the same if set at 0.012 versus 0.015. You are left to wonder which is right, the smaller or the larger number. Set the timing to break the points at the mark and there is no guess about the timing, which is what you are trying to set to begin with. Timing. Setting the gap gives you an approximation, from there you can set by break. I don't bother with the gap because it is not a useable setting by itself.

Amen AZ. Well spoken! Set the timing, points and check continuity all at the same time. The gap is an after thought.

Maxie

OK. I've been reading all of this! I am having trouble finding the 11 o'clock mark on the casing. So, is it better to set the gap with the magneto cover on or off? I can see things better with it off but I am not sure how to accomplish this without the cam lobe on the cover. Or should I do it with the magneto on and try to find the 11 o'clock Mark on the case? Is there a measurement as to how far left the 11 o'clock Mark from the 12 o'clock Mark?

I have not touched the bike in a few days. Figured I needed to give my brain and my knees a break! I think I'm going to go back to it tomorrow. But at last check I was not getting any spark at the plug..... ; / Victor

Not sure how you would set the gap with the cover on.

Not sure if this will help but here is a picture of the timing marks you are looking for. The mark to the right some what aligned with rear cylinder stud is the point at which the points should just begin to open. The other mark some what left center of the cylinder studs is top dead center. If your marks are obscured you could still set the point gap .012 to .014 inch. To check point gap you would rotate the flywheel until the points are at the widest open position and check gap.....should be very close to top dead center. I assume the cover you are mentioning is the fly wheel. It would not be possible to set point gap / timing with out the flywheel. Danny

Victor:

Please go back up the thread and review the advice about reading the manual and taking your time to figure out what it says . . . and what it means.

Ed
PS: Slow down, you'll go faster.
PPS: You must have the magneto cover off to even see the flywheel or to get to the points. "Cover" does not equal "flywheel". The flywheel must be in place in order to set the timing.

Ed. No offense, but if I go any slower I'll be moving backwards in time!

I have issues. My spine is 70% fused from osteophytes so it's hard to bend over. Also I have had knee surgery on both knees but ony left knee it was just the end of January. So squatting or kneeling down still hurts. When I have the bike up on the jack, the jack gets in the way of my view through the magneto. So it's a slow and arduous process for me to do work on the bike in the areas currently needed.

Yes I read and re-read the manual, slowly. Yes I am trying to use the section on setting it manually. I dont't have any kind of timing light but I was thinking about getting one today. If I can find the 11:00 mark on the casing it will help. It would make it possible to find TDC.

I may call some of the parts by the wrong names. Probably not a good thing to do when talking with someone who can probably ID a washer from a bike without being told where it goes. But I try.

I know by now you probably think I'm an idiot who has no business working on a motorcycle engine! But I appreciate your patience & please know I am going S L O W L Y . . . . ; D Victor

Thanks to a call to Dan, we were able to determine the wire from the exciter coil to the condenser was a cold solder and not making great contact. I was able to pull this wire loose, clean it and re solder the exciter wire back on the condenser and she fired right up and idled nicely.

With the #30 pilot jet on her, she now starts cold ONLY with the choke engaged, rather than not engaged like before with the #40 pilot jet. She still has the 140 main jet in her and when I finish buttoning up the shift cover I will once again try to take her for a ride around the subdivision and see how the pilot jet change affects her running. If needed I can then start fiddling with the main jet size. But she already is running leaner and idles better!

I also need to get a functioning kill switch on her. I'm hoping to find a switch locally at my Suzuki/Yamaha/Kawasaki dealer, and get this in place do I don't have to stalk her to turn her off.

Today was a very good day!!!!!!! Thank you Dan!!! ; D Victor

Victor,
I strongly suggest getting a kill switch in place before going any further. When something sticks, it is the only way to save you and your motorcycle. Even with a keyed switch, you need a kill switch. I was exercising bikes just yesterday and upon starting my Ace 90, much to my surprise, the throttle was stuck wide open! No time to be searching for a key when that happens!

Glad you found the spark!
Dale

Plan on it today Dale. I called the parts guys at the local shop but they were slammed when I called. At a doctors appointment now and will just stop by there to see if they have a generic one I can attach.

I did ride her and the only way to stop the engine was to stall her out with the clutch and the bike in gear. So the kill switch is my next immediate plan!

I was able to ride her through all 5 years! She shifts a little bit tightly but I need to get a new grease gun with a functioning zerk nipple so I can inject more grease into the shifter cover. That should take care of it.

The pipe seems clean, no rats nests, and a functioning spark arrestor. I may clean the arrestor a bit before reinserting, since I have it out right now. But all in all, I'm a very happy camper today! ; D Victor

Unless the shop you go to is old school or has a older guy working there good luck. When your trying to buy something for your Hodaka at a new shop, you better know more about your bike and what you want then they do. The new generation parts guy only knows how to look up a part number, which of course they don't have for a Hodaka. They most likely aren't old enough to know what a bike older the 2000 is.

Social. No problemo. I ordered a push button kill switch from a parts catalogue that will work on any bike. Didn't need to know a part number or bike model to order it. It was only $10.95 and it was all black with a red button & bolts on to the handlebar. Pretty simple even for these guys standards. I know what it's like buying through a Stealership! LOL! ; D Victor

Hey Vic, it was my pleasure to assist you today. You proved to be a good pupil....I think that is the first time I have ever said that to a teacher. Again, always glad to help.

Danny

Hey Dan. I never got the bike started again after talking to you. Don't know if its a spark issue yet. Haven't checked. Will pull the plug tomorrow and make sure it's not fouled and if it is I will swap it out and check for spark. Keep your fingers crossed. Like you said, welcome to the world of vintage bikes!

Oh and just to add insult to injury, my kick stand tab cracked in half today and the kickstand fell off! Now I'm gonna have to take it to get welded. Thankfully we have a family member who owns a Meineke and I can get it welded and reinforced too! Wondering what will break next!?!?!?!? ; D Victor

Dan. The problem was the plug was completely fouled after just 2.5 miles. I was running it hard at full throttle or near full most of the time. But she turned black Black BLACK! Here's the plug after 2.5 miles. So I ordered main jets from 130 down to 100 in intervals of 5. They should be here mid week. I"ll start working her down slowly, one jet and probably one spark plug, at a time! ; D Victor

Have to ask what you are using now for premix oil. Fouling can be fuel fouling, but since we have left tetra ethyl lead far in the past, fuel fouling is hard to accomplish in my opinion. Oil fouling, however, is not so hard to do. So the question is what do you use and at what ratio? When running, was there a lot of smoke? Was it running clean or blubbering? Could you rev to high rpm or did it start to balk after mid range? In order for a plug to crap out in two miles due to over rich jetting, it would have to run like crap, to the point that your neighbors would know it wasn't running right. But I thought you had said it ran nicely this last time. Not saying it can't be jets, but frankly I doubt that is it.

Did you hold back a new plug for test purposes, and does it still spark? What color is the spark? What heat range is the plug that quit? What brand? Was it new? Is it the same brand and range you were using in the past? Do I understand correctly that you recently split the cases and replaced crankcase seals? Did you verify where it is firing, as in timing break versus point gap?

All these questions, and most haven't anything to do with jetting, but are diagnostic variables to consider. I would leave the jetting alone until I knew for a fact that the jetting is too rich. There are so many things that can be verified, and on the other hand, jetting is rarely an issue, even due to altitude, to the point of fouling plugs in ten minutes or less. That kind of fouling I would attribute to too much premix, low quality premix, very stale gasoline with too much oil, or leaking crankcase seals. Or for that matter, leaking oil into the crank from the case mate surface due to failed sealant. Which leads back to questions about leak down testing. In your case I would start with a leak down test, and a brief trial run without the exhaust pipe.

I don't know of a quantitative test for over rich condition. Usually, one listens to the way it runs, and checks plug color and wetness. Two miles should not be enough time to color a plug, and since it would have just warmed up, the plug could well be sooty in color simply due to start sequence, and not enough time to burn the plug to some other condition. All perfectly normal as far as plugs go. If you fuel fouled in two miles, it should be soaking wet more than black. I would not be misled by the color in so short a run.

Hodaka specifies spark sufficiency by air gap testing, but not with a spark plug. The ignition system should produce a spark that will jump a 6 or 7mm gap at 500 rpm, more at higher rpm. This tests the potential of the spark, not just the fact of it. What we usually call a "hot" spark, visually fat and blue on a spark plug versus weak, yellow, intermittent, or thin spark. I think you can achieve a basic 500 rpm spark with a vigorous kick on the starter. 5000 rpm, not so much. If someone has a test procedure to use here, I would like to know what it is. I used to have an adjustable air gap gizmo that clipped on the spark plug between plug top and spark connector, that was screw adjustable for gap. That way you could start with a narrow gap, start the bike, and expand the gap until it failed to jump the gap. Probably this is what Hodaka had in mind. If there is another way to do this, someone else might have an idea. Or, where to find an adjustable air gap tester.

Increasing air gap also tends to increase voltage output of the coil, up to a point. I have sometimes artificially increased air gap to nurse a plug home by pulling the sparky off the plug and resting it lightly on the plug end so the metal contacts were not touching, causing the spark to jump a gap. This helps with oil fouling by increasing spark potential, but is iffy and temporary.

I am thinking oil problems, either premix or crankcase.

Last suggestion is to change plug types. It looks like you are using standard electrode plugs. I would change to V type plugs, or precious metal fine wire tips.

Greg. The premix is 1:36 and the brand is Castor 927. It's a synthetic blend with filtered and esther castor oil. I think I said the right. Don't have the bottle with me as I'm not at home right now.

No, not heavy smoke. Cold it was a bit white but I went away as it warmed up. It has that sweet castor oil smell in the exhaust but not real heavy.

Yes it was a brand new plug gapped at .026. I was bringing the revs up and seeing what I would get out of her at full throttle in the lower gears. It was riding fine and I shut the throttle down to turn a 90 degree corner on the street and it kind of hiccuped and died out. I had to push the bike home. I sat on the side of the road talkng on the phone for about 10 minutes befor trying to kickstart the bike again and it would not start.

I pulled the plug the following day and I saw what you see in the picture. The plug was completely black on the insulator, the tip and even the bent metal piece.

When I split the cases I put in new seals, new bushings and new bearings. Even a new seal in the shift shaft.
I'm running a 10w40 Rotella T which is rated for motorcycles as the tranny oil.

It did seem to run like it was a bit rich. By that I mean it would pull through the gears but it felt like it was on the verge of sputtering but never did. Kind of like it felt short on power. The bike was ridden one time before so there was one day in between for the 2.5 mile accumulation.

She starts easy, with the choke working now and when she warms up the choke can be turned off. So I think the pilot jet is good now at 30 instead of 40, and that was the pilot jet which is supposed to be in this Model 93 Ace 100 Super Rat carb.

I am surprised that the spec sheet Paul posted wants 180 and 170 main jets up to 6000 feet. It says a 160 at 7-9000 feet but this bike has continued to run rich at my elevation, even with the 140. So that's why I am going to try mains between 100 & 130 stepping down 5 units at a time until the plug runs lighter.

I don't believe there's any oil leaking in from the case. Not with everything new in it and I used an automotive black (RTV?) seal between the case halves.

Dan told me the piston to the Model 95 cylinder is supposed to have only one ring but the piston in the cylinder had two ring notches. I don't know if that could be making a difference, but sooner or later I'll have to see if I need to rule that out. The cylinder is .010 over and so are the rings.

That's about all I can tell you at this point. ; D Victor

Victor,

Black is the natural state of a plug running on a cold bike. New plug don't show toasty brown in two miles. It takes more than that. From your description, it sounds like the ignition failed, not the plug. Test this with another plug, but I just don't see a plug going rich fouled in such a short time unless the bike was four stroking it was so rich. You wouldn't be able to ride it that way. I would not run a main jet that lean. Something else is wrong with this picture. Have you verified that the ignition is making spark and the plug is bad?

I have never used RTV on engine case halves because only one or two are really rated to run next to hot oil all the time, and very few if any are rated for gasoline. Case sealants are a special breed. I know that some folks have used RTV for this purpose. I wouldn't. I use Yamabond or Hondabond 4 which is made for exactly this purpose. In any event, assuming things are good just because you just did them is nevertheless an assumption. The only way to eliminate a leaking case as the culprit is a leak down test.

It does not sound like you are using too rich a premix. But I have no experience with modern castor based blends. Years ago, no one mixed castor even a day before the race. Same day only because they were not stable. I have no idea if that has changed, but I do think that changing from Dino based or synthetic premix to castor requires some degree of jetting change to be truly effective, so I think there is an introduced variable here by using castor that you could do without until things are working again.

If you are using NGK B-8HS I would change to the B-8HV. I would also open the gaps to 0.28 to 0.32 of you continue to use the HS style. Sooner or later you are going to have to verify the spark meets minimum gap standard so you may have to find a gap tester. Spark should jump a good quarter inch gap and if it won't, the coils are suspect.

Recheck you solder joint that you found bad. And did you complete the full spectrum of resistance and capacitance tests? If you stopped looking when you found the cold solder joint, go,back over the whole system and check for performance to specifications.

Just by your description of running fine and revving through the lower gears, it sounds like it is not overly rich. From half to full throttle of it was too rich, it would just get worse and worse until it was blubbering like a baby. If it was crackling and cutting out at high revs, it is actually too lean. Too rich and it would be smoking a lot and the pipe joint at the cylinder would be drooling goo.

The color of the plug tip alone tells me nothing. There are too many other things that go with a black plug to jump to a conclusion about the condition of the plug or the jetting. If it had not quit, would you have been happy with the way it was ru Ning? If so, it ain't the main jet.

So how, exactly, is a leak down test performed? I've never done one. And what special tools are needed?

I wouldn't say I was happy with the way she was running. She seemed a bit slow. I haven't ridden a 125 in a long time but I expected mure pull than she was giving me. So I'm still wanting to get her dialed in. Let me know about the test. That way I can rule hints out...or not. Victor

PM sent. If someone has a leak down kit they have made for a Hodaka like Victors and would be willing to loan it out, that would be great. I don't have one so can't help here. Fas as I know there is no substitute for a good leak down test.

Questions about pistons, one ring or two matters little. Mix and matching parts is a Hodaka tradition. If the rings don't snag and it makes correct running pressure, I would not worry about it. Generally a single Dykes ring at the top indicates a racing piston, multiple rings indicates a more user friendly, longer lasting, trail bike setup. As long as piston does not strike head, you should be good with what you have.

Leak down does require tools more or less custom made for the job, but requires a compression gauge just the same as the one used for testing compression generally, so if you don't have one, look around for one at Sears, or Harbor Freight, or wherever. It doesn't have to be a precision device, just a good rugged repeatable test gizmo.

I am still thinking ignition, not jetting, but go over my PM for details. Too long winded for the forum.

Got my kill switch today. Now I'm just waiting for jets to come in. Got notification they were shipped today. ; D Victor

OK! Kill switch is installed! No if I can just get it to start again! She has spark but when I try kicking her over she gives the "I almost started sound." She has a new plug in her and she's not fouled. So I need to figure out if it's fuel or something else. She IS trying my patience! ; D Victor

Frankly, I would drain the tank and carb, toss the castor mix, and start over with basic premix like Yamalube 2. Once you have everything debugged, if you want to you can return to castor.

Maybe I am just old school, but I never used castor premix for general use. Racing only, and always with mix made up that day. I would even consider using fuel stabilizer if you don't ride every day. I use Stabil. Fuel these days has lots of aromatic stuff that evaporates out of gas quickly, not like gas from 25 years ago or more. I would also avoid ethanol blended fuel, just because. Don't know what is sold regionally in Santa Fe, but verify that your gas is just gas not gasohol.

And, verify the ignition. It could still be a loose wire somewhere, or even the condenser again. They are so touchy about being soldered. Test it, and the coils and points.