Gears Not Engaging!!!

[ossa95d]

Yesterday you said this, "Greg. I was always starting it with the lever in the down position. This was my biggest indicator that it was too rich. If it starts not choked when cold and dies when it warms up, that to me says that the carb is set too rich for my elevation."

Unless I am misreading this I will repeat that I believe you have your choke action backwards. If you have the lever down, the choke is ON. That would explain why it won't run when warm.

[viclioce]

Ossa9. I was always meaning the plunger was down. Sorry for any confusion. When the lever is down, the plunger is up. When the lever is up the plunger is down. Just depends on what you're talking about or looking at. So in your terms, I was starting it with the lever up, choke NOT engaged.

As I am sure quite a few of you can tell, I am frustrated. I had a bike that would run, even with a cracked top ring. The cylinder was worn uneven and it was already at .40 over sized. So I used the second cylinder I had which was .10 over sized with a new piston also .10 over sized and brand new .10 over rings. So I'm pretty sure compression isn't the issue. Especially now that I kick start it and it takes a bit more effort than before with the cracked ring and worn cylinder/piston. The bike started after the top end rebuild and I actually rode it down the street. But as soon as it warmed up, I couldn't get it to run. It cooled off and the next day it started and ran at idle briefly. Now she won't start at all.

I'm stepping away from her for a few days until the new condenser and points come in. Then I will pull the magneto, check to confirm how many stator coils I have, replace the condenser and points and gap the points correctly. This will eliminate any possibility of my non start issues coming from the electrical system, unless it's a failed coil! Since I still see spark crossing the plug gap, I am assuming the coil is still good. New points, properly gapped & a new condenser and I will go ahead and also put the second brand new plug in the bike. Has anyone else ever cleaned a fouled plug by burning it clean with a butane flame? Do you believe this works or is it just a myth? ; D Victor

[ossa95d]

Victor,
Sorry to ask the same question twice but the way that you worded it I was hoping that maybe it was something that simple. I guess it didn't hurt to ask. We all have done silly things when we are in a hurry. I once left a rag in the air boot between the filter and the carb to keep dirt from getting in and forgot to remove it when I put the filter back on. Boy did I feel dumb when I figured it out. A rich condition could be caused by too much fuel or too little air, but there are several other scenarios that could be restricting the engine, many of which have been discussed. I would pull off the air filter and the exhaust pipe (one at a time) and see if it runs without them. I think your carburetor with the stock jetting should at least allow the bike to run well enough to refine your jetting situation. I wouldn't start changing jets too drastically until the source of your problems has been identified. Good luck!

[Zyx]

Over the years, I have found that when something worked and now it won't, it is the last thing you did that is the problem. As a pilot, if I switched fuel tanks in flight and the engine got quiet, I switched the fuel selector back. With bikes, same thing. Here, the last thing you did before it started having issues was a top end overhaul and a different cylinder. That's where I would look. I make no assumptions about the correctness just because I just fixed something. You may have left out a seal or put it backwards or scratched the seal lip and it is sucking oil. Hard to say without a leak down test. Could be anything having to do with the rebuild. Untested assumptions are still unanswered questions. May be the timing is way off. Don't know.

As for clearing oil fouled plugs with a torch, it works temporarily. You will still leave imbedded ash and residue. Something like this, it either works or it doesn't. Try it and see.

[viclioce]

Not true Greg. As I stated before, after reassembly, I started the bike. It idled cold, with the choke off right away. I also rode the bike around the block and was 3/4 of the way back to the house when it quit running. Pushed it home, let it sit in the garage over night and it started again the following day, again without engaging the choke. While idling the bike died. I proceeded to attempt rejetting at that point changing the pilot jet from a #40 to a #30 and changing the main jet from a 140 to a 100. I then changed the main jet back to a 140 so I would only be changing one thing at a time. Ordered a new condenser and a new set of points which I anticipate arriving on Wednesday or Thursday at the latest. So no, the bike did run after the top end rebuild. It just ran poorly. It just won't run now. ; D Victor

[Bullfrog]

Victor:

There are two things that I assumed . . . and I shouldn't have assumed either of them.

1. You simply can't tune a carb until you KNOW the ignition system is working properly (and properly timed). Changing out the condenser is a very good thing to do.
2. It has been mentioned that the O-ring found at the bottom end of the main nozzle (needle jet) must be in good condition . . . I had blithely assumed that it was in good condition. You should check it. It must not be hard or cracked - and when installed on its brass fitting, it must be a nice snug fit into the little bowl molded into the bottom of the float bowl. If the O-ring is damaged/cracked/wrong size it will allow un-metered fuel to flow any time the engine is turning over. Moreover, the fuel flow will happen at any and all throttle positions. In a word, that would be bad. Yes.

Finally, I'd recommend ordering in a box of 10 NGK spark plugs. They are only about $2 apiece. Don't let a $2 item of unknown condition stand between you and getting it running. You may use a few of 'em up while tuning -- but once you get things set up right, you'll likely find that a single plug will run all season/year (and maybe next year too!)

Ed

[viclioce]

Thanks Ed. Yes, I suspect the condenser may have failed. I'll be checking my mailbox again today to see if it came in. I suspect the condenser failed and it's why I am getting the continual no start issue. Since I have to pull the magneto, I figured I would put new points as well.

I have looked at the rubber O ring on the end of the needle jet tube. It appears s to be ok. It does not appear to have gotten hard or cracked because I can remove it and put it back on without difficulty and It still has some stretch in it. But, I will check my box and see if I have a good spare and change it out if I do, just to eliminate that possibility.

I don't know if the current new plug is fouled. But, I still have another new one gapped & ready to go. I will also pick up some more because my local O'Riley's has them in stock. Tell me how quickly will a new plug foul during start up attemps when the jetting is assumed to be too rich. That way I will know how often to change it out.

If she starts with a new condenser, points & fresh plug, I will post and let you know. I believe the compression is good but I don't have a good way of confirming it because I don't have a gauge to check it. But I believe this to be a non issue because the top end rebuild went well, with a matching .10 cylinder, new .10 piston and new .10 rings. No much can go wrong with that combination. So, more to come and thanks for your update post! ; D Victor

Oh, and on top of everything else, we are having a grandbaby today!!! Our first grand daughter! So I may get detoured just a bit longer!!! : )

[Bullfrog]

Victor:

I hope that grand-daughter lives close! I've got two and they bring a whole new dimension to your life!

I'll expect an update on the machine in, oh, a month or two.

Sounds like your O-ring is fine, so why mess with it? You've got a grand-daughter to go share goo-goo's with!

Ed

[Zyx]

You asked: how quickly can a new plug foul if running rich.

A: anywhere from real soon to right away. Five minutes, fifteen, hard to say.

Earlier, you asked: can you clean an oil fouled plug by heating with a torch.

A: no. I tried it yesterday just for grins, and I will also point out that the plug in question sparks outside the cylinder, but does not spark inside. Just one of the vagaries of a fouled plug. You can heat the electrode till it glows and not get the base of the ceramic hot enough to smoke, so unless you burn it to destruction, torching won't really work. My plug worked again for less than one minute.

You stated: the top end is all 0.10 over new parts so what can go wrong with that.

A: Everything. Those are all assumptions. New parts wrongly installed won't achieve anything. I too have had cylinders rebored with all new piston, rings and such, only to find that the over bore was so over that it was almost the next size right out of the box. The possibilities are many. If you checked skirt gap, piston gap, wrist pin clearance, installed new gaskets, remembered to use case sealant of the cases were split, and did everything right, you are right, you should have good compression and so on, but without checking, it is still an assumption. Compression gauges are cheap.

Regarding the condenser: A condenser is a capacitor whose function is to subdue the air arc of electricity at the points when the points open. Without this device, the points don't last very long. However, you can take the condenser out of the machine and still get a spark. Unless the condenser has failed by going grounded, which is highly unlikely, failure of the condenser is generally transparent. It is not until the points fry that you notice that the condenser has failed, in which case it won't run at all, cold, warm, or in between. Failure of the condenser is almost always a breach of the dielectric wrap inside the can between the conductive foils. This causes the capacitance to drop below spec, or to near zero, so it is no longer a capacitor in function. It is just there. How long it takes to burn the points is unpredictable, but something on the order of sometime during a days ride.

Regarding the timing: timing can make a bike do lots of things but not, as far as I know, make it run rich. Rich by definition is a fuel/air ratio thing. So you either don't have enough air, or you have too much fuel and or oil. If you have a foam filter that you just cleaned and oiled and you used too much oil, that will make it run very rich and can foul a plug in a hurry, partly due to restricted air flow, and partly to injestion of oil off of the filter. Very easy to do. Or, during the rebuild while the carb was off, something got into the Venturi ports and a port is clogged. Or, some dirt got into the fuel line and is intermittently causing the float needle to stick open, flooding the carb. Or, in putting the carb back together, the float arm got bent a little and the float level is a bit too high, causing mild flooding. Or, there is a pin hole in a float, and the float is sinking, flooding the carb. Or, the crank seal on the clutch side has failed and you are injesting gear case oil. Or, while the pipe was off, something nested in the pipe and it is clogged. I am afraid I could go on a bit more, but you get the point.

At the end of the day, a Hodaka is a pretty simple internal combustion device. It used to run fine before it was overhauled, now not so much. Clearly something changed. Check compression, check timing and spark, check for fuel, which I assume you have in abundance. Try dumping your premix and making up a fresh batch. Modern gasoline evaporates faster than the old leaded fuel of yesteryear, and while you were rebuilding the bike, the premix may have gone sour.

[viclioce]

Greg. Thanks for all the info. Taking it one step at a time.

I will say it's strange to me that a condenser failure will still allow the bike to run. I had a Kawaski F6 125 when I was younger. The condenser failed on me twice. Both times, the bike would not start until the condenser was replaced. It was also mentioned by someone else so it's the reason I ordered a replacement. We learn as we go, and I have learned from past experience that 2 identical bikes of the same make model & year will react to change differently.

Based on what your telling me about plug fouling, I plan to change the plug again with the condenser and points. It could very we'll be fouled and if that's the case would be conteibutimg to the no start issue. But I only have one left and will need to get a few more. So I don't want to change the plug until I get the new points & condenser in. That way I run less of a risk of fouling the last new plug I have.

My first Granddaughter was born on Friday evening so I haven't had time to get back to work on her yet. I think they will go home from the hospital on Monday and I can get back to the bike then. Thanks for your continued posting and support! C; D Victor

[taber hodaka]

Victor You have had a lot of advice. Most any dealer from the past would have your machine running in about a half hour or less, It will not start and run with the compression to low or without spark. Anytime you cannot start the machine but keep kicking it over with the choke on you are loading up the crankcase with fuel, which means it is beyond flooded. Your bike will not start even with 10 plugs, a wet fouled plug is not oil fouled. You can dry off a wet fouled plug with ether (starting fluid) spray it on the tip of the plug and shake it. If you have compression fuel and spark ay the right time it will run but not if you have an excess of fuel in the crankcase. Are you using Castrol oil or castor oil. don't be the test pilot try yamalube 40 to one or whatever the folks are running. It only takes a few seconds to dry out a crank case over loaded with fuel, but I am not going to suggest my method on the forum.------------ Clarence.

[viclioce]

OK. Look at this photo! I think I found the answer to my starting problems!

Though there is some flare in the picture, you can see the condenser connectors are melted together. When I was pulling the fly wheel, it wasn't as tight as I expected it to be. I suspect the flywheel may have been wobbling & rubbing against the connectors and rubbed them together, shorting things out.

Going to see if I can install the new condenser now and eliminate the short this is causing. Then, hopefully she will start & I can deal with Ed on tuning the carb! ; D Victor

[Bullfrog]

Victor:

All of the wires which come together at the top of the condenser are soldered to the same solder pad . . . so they automatically are connected together (as they should be) -- so I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.

The photo is clear enough to tell . . . but it appears that one (or more) of the wires may not be well insulated from contact with the outer case of the condenser. IF any of those wires are shorting to the outer case of the condenser, your ignition will not work properly. Simply taking some steps to assure the wires can NOT contact the outer case of the condenser may resolve your spark issues. (Of course that may not resolve the issue, since the condenser could still be weak/dead.)

Ed
PS: This may be more detail than anyone wants -- the "anti-arcing" function of the condenser serves another important function for the ignition system. The rapid drop of the voltage being fed to the ignition coil (under the tank) caused by the opening of the points causes a rapid collapse of the magnetic field generated by the primary windings of the ignition coil. But higher spark voltage is induced in the secondary windings if the magnetic field collapse is more rapid than can be produced by the simple mechanical opening of the points. (and now we get to the point of this "PS") By its ability to "take" the voltage flow "instantaneously" when the points start to open, the condenser helps create a much more rapid drop of voltage being delivered to the primary windings of the ignition coil - which, in turn, results in a much more rapid collapse of the primary coil magnetic field - which, in turn, results in higher spark voltage being induced in the secondary windings - ie, more powerful spark. So the condenser does wayeeee more than simply protect the points from burning/arcing - it is critical for spark "strength".

[viclioce]

I understood that was tha condenser's funtion. I think I have it on but need to check my solder to make sure it isn't contacting the condenser case.

I have to go back to the hospital now. My wife has been there all day with my daughter & her newborn! I was there earlier but came home when they all fell asleep! More to come! ; D Victor

[admin]

Greg very good !! You took a lot of time and effort to get this to Victor thank you !!

Victor I have watched your post that you were waiting for "points and condenser" to arrive. When I saw this post I immediately went in and checked our online orders and have been keeping a close eye on them since your post. Not an issue for me as we have Bill Cook and Bruce Young who do great getting parts out but if you were waiting for me to send parts the order was never placed here at SH. Again no worries just for your personal information

Congratulations on your new granddaughter !! I leave tomorrow and will be gone a few weeks to meet my new grandson.

Paul

[viclioce]

Ok. I got the new condenser in, being sure no wire or solder makes contact with the outer casing of the condenser.

I have installed the new points, but I am having difficulty getting the gap to open. At first, because of the photo in the manual, I thought I had to gap them with the magneto cover off. Then I realized the cam which opens the points is on the inside of the magneto, being its inner shaft.

I need some advise on how to get the gap to open. I line up the timing marks on the case and magneto & hold things steady but I do not see the points opening. So some advise here, or someone's neat "trick which works every time" would be helpful. Thanks! ; D Victor

[viclioce]

OK. After fighting with it for quite awhile, I think I got the gap set on the points to .013.

I am going to mix a new batch of premix. The 2 stroke oil I have is Castor 927. It says mixing ratios from 1:20 to 1:60. So, since issues have been fouling the plug, And I think I mixed last time around 1:28-32. But the fuel did sit for quite a while with all the transmission and kickstarter issues. So I am asking to advise on a reasonable mix ratio, considering its a new cylinder/piston/rings. Should I go 1:32 or something higher or lower?

I have replaced the condenser, the points & plug (and hopefully have the points gapped at .013 and the plug at .026), so hopefully now she will start again. The pilot jet is a #30 down from a #40 and the main jet is still at 140. Hopefully, we can address the fuel to air mixture assuming she starts. I also bought 6 more spare plugs.

I'm betting lots of folks use different mix ratios, about as much as people use different oils. So I'm looking for a starting point. 1:30? 1:40? Something in between? This Castor 927 is is labled as a racing oil. I have to premix because this bike does not have an oil injector. ; D Victor

[socalhodaka]

40:1.

[viclioce]

Not getting spark again.

I have double checked the previous wires which were not connected correctly. Everything connected.

I am going to check the condenser and make sure all 3 wires are soldered and connected.

Still not sure on the points. Hoping my son in law the mechanic can assist me with the points/condenser.

Until I get spark to the plug, nothing else is important.

I did check with a local independent shop, who has someone who's been around for years, about trying to do this last bit of electrical and carb tuning. He said, "We like to do this kind of trouble shooting in the winter, when business is slow."

I am waiting for the number of a friend who used to work at and co-own the local Suzuki shop when it was stand alone. Before it got bought out by the conglomerate which now owns the Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Polaris shop and has a revolving door for mechanics. He is a good mechanic, and someone I trust. I'm hoping he will help me with this last 2% that needs working.

That's how close I really think I am. 2%. The hairiest 2% but the last 2%.

Well, I'll keep you posted. Damn this is aggravating..... ; / Victor

[rlkarren]

I think the plug should be .024".

Can't remember where I saw a link, but I'll summarize:

1. There are two timing marks on the case edge. The mark at 12 O'Clock is 25 degrees before TDC. The mark to left of that, (or at 11 O'Clock), is TDC, where you will set timing to .012 - .015". These marks are sometimes barely visible.

2. Line up the timing mark on the flywheel to the "11 O'Clock" timing mark on the case.

3. While holding the flywheel in place, you should be able to see the points through one of the holes in the flywheel. It is through this hole you set the timing by loosening the screw, adjusting the gap appropriately, re-tightening, re-checking that the points didn't close up while tightening. test for spark.

There are other more accurate ways to do this, but this is probably the "field expediant" method to get you close and if everything else is OK, will get you running.

I've recently found that an inductive timing light works really well as long as you have a 12v power source.

Roger

**edited to correctly identify the marks**

[hodakamax]

Back on page 9, I did an article on "Timing the Hodaka". It's also in the current issue of the Resonator. This is the simplest, easy and most accurate method of setting the points. This is how it was done in the day and still works today. Hope this helps.

Max

ps---you can also use this method on your old VW Beetle.

[taber hodaka]

Roger I think you could be wrong. When the timing marks are aligned the points should just start to break. Point gap would be the max you would have. Points that are gaped to close burn. The old rule of thumb is spark plug gap twice points gap. Clarence

[Zyx]

Victor,

When the ignition marks align, technically the points are still closed, or so they should appear to be. It is at this point in the rotation that they just begin to open, causing the magnetic field to break down causing the spark. So if you have a 0.013 gap with the marks aligned, your ignition is so far advanced that I doubt it could start. You would likely see a spark at the plug, but it won't start that way. Follow the instructions as referenced above for setting the timing.

I have always set the points to just open at the mark, using a 12v bulb and clips, or even an old AM radio as a sonic tester to determine spark timing, and let the gap fall where it will. This is a magneto, not a 12v distributor, so there is no dwell adjustment. You do not set the gap, then set the timing as you would on an old car. Here, there is only timing of the point opening event. After that the gap will be a result of the degree of wear on the point wiper, the wear on the cam, and to some extent the build of the points. I can't remember ever setting a gap on the Hodaka.

Review the timing procedure until it makes sense, then set the timing again. I wouldn't worry about gas until you have a reliable, timed spark. Otherwise you will be flooding the cylinder if it fails to start.

[rlkarren]

Clarence,

I think there may be some confusion. I went back to my manual to double check what I posted earlier:

"B. Timing the Engine by Gap Setting Method

With magneto cover free of the engine -- begin by rotating the flywheel until the F/T mark aligns with the left-hand mark on engine case (fig 29). Insert a flat-bladed screwdriver through the topmost inspection window of flywheel face, back off contact breaker screw, and use a screwdriver blade (inserted between magneto frame and breaker point bracket) to adjust gap setting wider or closer as needed. Measure point gap with feeler guage (Fig 30) to attain a .012" (.3mm) to .015" (.4mm) setting, with setting screw secured."

Section "C.Alternative Timing Methods" mentions specifically setting the timing so that "when F/T mark is aligned with right-hand case mark the points just open" It goes on to explain that aligning the F/T mark at the right hand mark places the piston at 25 degrees before TDC, and aligning F/T at the left hand mark places it at TDC.

What I understand is that left hand mark = .012" - .015" gap and using the right hand mark = "points just start to open". Both, theoretically achieve the same results.

So, my earlier post should mirror section B above as that is what I was trying to write from memory, (when I should have been working)... I did get the marks backwards, but Section B above is straight out of my Official Manual of 1967 and the procedure and methods didn't change in later years, as I understand it.

Roger

[hodakamax]

Doesn't anyone read my free post on how to set the points and test their continuity at the same time? I'll bring it to the top.