Hodaka Fever

[Dale]

Bill,
It is an easy answer. Just order a new key from Paul's site for a 94 Wombat. It will fit. No need for a blank key.
Dale

[Bill2001]

Easy indeed, Key even has a key number on it. Sort of like BMW used the very same "key" on the ignition fro 1933 to 1973-- a "nail" that fit the ignition switch.

I'll put a couple of an uncoming order to Paul.

--Bill

[Bill2001]

As long as we're talking gas-- I have two fuel tanks: one near-perfect for _show_ and another with patina and dings for daily use. The "User tank" has a pair of period-correct brass petcocks, the "show tank" has no petcocks (yet). I'm thinking that the vintage brass petcocks might be becoming a rarity and I'd be better off getting a pair of the "new and improved" pot-metal petcocks, which as I recall are serviceable, too. Same situation as with BMWs, so I might put new petcocks on my "to-get" list.

I note that the petcocks don't have a "Reserve" setting-- only On, Off and Walk. I'll presume that you run only one petcocks (one half of the saddle-shaped tank) at a time, and switch over to the other side of the tank for a "last minute reprieve".

--Bill

[Dale]

Bill,
The brass petcocks are known to seep and are a pain. With some patience, they can be lapped and made to work properly. Personally, I am a big fan of the new and improved pot metal petcocks. What if you purchased a pair of the new ones for your User Tank and swap the brass ones to your Show Tank?

I might also suggest several tips for dealing with the petcock installation.
Get a tap and die and clean your threads prior to installation. The Tap is 1/8-28 BSPP and the die is G1/8. You will be happy that you did!
Get yourself some fuel resistant thread goop (Gasoila) and coat the top and bottom of the petcock gasket in addition to a little on the threads.
Watch Kelly's video on the installation. Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPIzn4lju3Y

Dale

[Bill2001]

What if you purchased a pair of the new ones for your User Tank and swap the brass ones to your Show Tank?

Duh. Yeah. That's what I was thinking but perambulated around. Life is too short to fiddle with leaky sticky petcocks.

Good tips on the installation, much thanks.

--Bill

[Bill2001]

Been tinkering with the Wombat the past few days-- I've enjoyed it and the bike is nearing mechanical perfection. Not that it's in bad shape, I'm just picky and like to tinker. The alternator and magneto are in good shape, physically-- new-looking lighting and exciter coils, new points, new condenser. Question about the points: The Book says a few drops of oil on the felt pad, a light film of oil on the points cam and you're good to go.

BUT for years on the BMW (battery-points-coil "Kettering Ignition") I've used a "points cam lube", which is a thick, fibrous grease made for ignition points. Wonder if I can use my points lube on that? It does a great job, lasting 10's of thousands of miles.

Ignition timing: I've read The Book and checked the timing with a test light/meter, and verified that the points gap is within spec. BUT I wonder if I could cross-check dynamically with a timing light? I have an inductive-pickup timing light and can power the light from a separate 12V battery so it's "Do-able". I'd have to run the Hodie engine with the magneto cover off. But the shift mechanism will of removed, too and the control rod, although in "Neutral" will be sitting 'twixt 1st and 2nd with no detent to hold it. That impresses me the same as a cocked gun. I may fab a bolt-on "neutral lock" for the control rod. Would checking the timing dynamically be worth the trouble?

--Bill (yeah, I was a Mad Scientist as a kid. So what? )

[hodakamax]

Bill, I really doubt that it will jump into gear. I guess you could put it on a stand but all unnecessary if you've timed it with a meter or contact light-- you're set. I'm not a fan of the feeler gauge gap method. Once you've verified that the points break on the right hand mark that's the best method for sure. Nothing wrong with being a mad scientist kid, I still am one.

Max

[dcooke007]

I take a different approach than Max with engine timing. I have not had good luck getting the timing set exactly other than using a timing light. Key word being exactly. I set the points initially by the break method Max described and then refine with a timing light. If timing is retarded increase point gap and if advanced reduce point gap. After seeing where timing is with the timing light, I use feeler gages to increase or decrease point gap rather than randomly moving the points to get the timing marks to align using the timing light.

When setting points I don't have enough hands....could use three. The flywheel wants to move while trying to gage and adjust the points. I can't grow another hand so I have a couple popsicle sticks that I wedge between the flywheel and the case. That holds the flywheel stationary and makes setting the points easier.

With that said, I know there are countless Hodaka's running around perfectly happy with the points adjusted with meters and contact lights. Max, just two sides of the same coin kind of thing.

It's not to difficult to remove the chain if you are concerned about the bike jumping into gear.

Danny

[Bill2001]

The timing is set really close using the test light and the point gap "feels" close to .014 so I guess it'd good. I _may_ recheck it with a strobe timing light after the new points settle-in, in a few weeks. But form what I understand the timing is easy to set and stable on these engines, so it maybe a double-check in vain.

I hadn't even thought of removing the drive chain to "safety" the engine when running. I may combine that check with a service on the rear wheel when I deglaze and check the new rear brake shoes.

Yeah, in addition to a mad scientist, I'm a mad wrench, too.

--Bill

[hodakamax]

One must remember that Max's advice is how it was done forty-plus years ago. I'm not the old dog that can't learn new tricks. Danny is way more up to date than I am with my ties to the past. My thinking (from the past) starts with the recommendation from Hodaka hand books namely the model 93A which recommends the timing to be set at 25 degrees BTDC and that the breaker point setting should be .012''-.015''. This gap setting even though meeting the requirements, seemed a bit too sloppy for me and I set up a light method to simplify and set much more accurately that the subjective feeler gauge method. I even turn the flywheel in the proper direction when doing this test. As a static adjustment it is dead on, I guess my question is; what changes when the flywheel is turning? There's no doubt that checking timing in the running mode is superior (I wouldn't expect less from my friend Danny) but is it overkill? (Maybe not on a critical race engine). Next question: Danny, how much can or does it vary from static (break on right-hand mark) and is it dependent on RPM? Honestly I have never even considered this happening and it certainly is interesting to me and fun to discuss.

And Bill, your question on checking up on settings after a run-in is a important one. Wear on the point cam follower is always trying to close the points. My expertise on this comes from owning old VW Beetles where the points were reset at each oil change (as well as a valve adjustment!)

Keep up the good work guys!

Max

[Bill2001]

Good points, Max My motorbike background is centered around an older BMW /5 model, which is VW-ish. I have a "points booster" on the points-ignition, which eliminates the electrical arcing and wear of the points, and maybe every year ir two I have to open the points-gap a couple of thou to compensate for rubbing block wear. Even then, I check the timing every major service @6000 miles. I'd suspect and speculate that the rubbing block wear on the Japanese magneto system tends to be minimal, especially with the very gentle point-cam shoulder on the flywheel. It seems to be a robust and reliable system.

--Bill

[dcooke007]

Hey Max,
I am not that sure that I am more up to date than you. Point ignitions have been around a long time and pretty much ancient technology for some time now. I think it is more our back grounds. Most of my working career has been spent in the automotive repair industry and adjusting points with feeler gages or dwell meters, depending on application, was the prescribed method. Final ignition timing was always adjusted afterwards using a timing light and rotating the distributor assembly.

I always liked the way GM designed their point ignitions back in the day. They had a little door in the distributor cap that could be raised to adjust point gap / dwell with the engine running. We used a dwell meter that connected to the negative side of the coil and adjusted the points to 30 degrees, with the engine running, and then adjusted final timing by rotating the distributor. It was easy to work on and very accurate.

You mentioned, "critical race engines" and that is where I discovered my timing methods needed more accuracy. I am sure you remember the Tired Combat Wombat thread where Will's piston suffered a melt down. I wanted to be very through in finding the cause and not have that repeat. Checking ignition timing was certainly on the list of things to consider in this instance. The timing light showed his timing was actually a little retarded. Retarded timing did not cause the melt down but was negatively affecting performance. That event also demonstrated accurate ignition timing should be performed before attempting carb jetting.

There are two ignition adjustments I always check now on all engines I restore. One is to use a dial indicator and to verify timing marks on the left engine case are accurate. If your point of reference is not accurate?????. Most of the timing marks are right on the money but I have come across some that were way off. Second, the only way I know of to verify timing accurately is with a timing light. Since my method was not giving the results desired this is what I use. Most of the time ignition timing was retarded when I adjusted by the break method. Once ignition timing is correct I would think you could measure point gap with a feeler gage and use that gap to be very close for correct timing.

Ignition timing does not change with rpms on our point ignition Hodaka's. Some motorcycle point ignitions do have advance mechanisms that well...advance timing when rpm's increase. Honda SL100, 125 etc. come to mind in that regards.

Is it over kill? In some regards maybe. There is better performance to be had with accurate timing. For just trail riding with moderate rpms close enough is probably good enough. With engines operated in the upper rpm ranges I think it is more critical for engine longevity.

If you have a timing light it would be an interesting exercise to see how accurate your point adjusting method is. Just like with using a torque wrench to tighten case screws...kind of.

And to think I just sat down here thinking I would take a few minutes and see what was going on. My OCD is on display.

Danny

[hodakamax]

Danny, Thanks for your in-depth reply. I do have a timing light and degree wheel (somewhere) and I will see how accurate my marks are. Maybe I'm just too trusting of advice from manuals and should explore a little more on my own as you obviously do. I was an old hot rod drag race nut before the motorcycle world. I'll bet my ancient dwell meter is in the same box with the degree wheel and timing light! I wonder if the timing marks were put on manually or part of the production process. Maybe Ed will have some insight on this.

Anyway, it's always fun and enlightening to discuss technical issues with you.

Later,

Max

[Bullfrog]

While it is ONLY A GUESS on my part - I think the original timing marks were manually made by the technician at the factory who installed and set the ignition system . . . and he had an occasional bad day. I've seem timing marks which were "not good".

Maxie, I'm sure your skills/craftsmanship result in properly timed engines within a quite good tolerance range. (Note that setting timing by the gap method at .013"-.015" involves a semi-significant range in timing in terms of firing before top dead center.) And I don't mind running one of my own engines based on setting the gap or on setting the point break point (using the release of cellophane method). However, measuring anything to the thousandth of an inch by any manual method is subject to the quirks and "feel" of the person doing the measuring. In addition, did that cellophane release "exactly" when the marks lined up (got your reading glasses on? Lined up to view the marks properly? etc.)? So . . . for peace of mind, I too hook up a timing light to see where the timing is actually set - after I've done the (pick one) eye ball, cellophane release, gap or buzz box timing setting.

Ed

[hodakamax]

I guess my line of thought on timing the Hodaka has changed in that one should definitely check the accuracy of the timing marks with a dial indicator and degree wheel. Since the contact light method actually measures electrical contact and the moment the coil fires (and the timing light) I personally can't see a need to check with a timing light. I could be wrong but I can be corrected. This is for discussion only!

Max, aka Dr. Science

PS---that eyeglass thing really can be a factor!

[MTrat]

I was waiting for someone to mention the old 'cellophane release' method which works quite well. To add an item of interest on timing, I knew an old Hodaka dealer who timed a bike at TDC, coasted it backward and released the clutch so the engine ran backward and he actually rode it backward. I tried it but am not coordinated enough. I also saw a 2-stroke (Bul or Greeves I think) start and run backward at the culmination of an unsuccessful hill climb run. Got kinda exciting....

[dcooke007]

Here is a pic for you. The faint mark to the far right was the factory timing mark. Just left of that is the corrected .094 inch btdc for the Combat Wombat.

Danny

[Bill2001]

Good discussion.

Feeler gauges are the epitome of precise imprecision (or is that imprecise precision ?? ). Noting when points open _vs_ marks align is close to within a few tens-of-thous. A dynamic timing light is close within a hair and is good to verify that your TLAR method is OK...

--Bill

[dcooke007]

Here is a picture of my super secret flywheel holding tool. I only make these in the heat of summer. Two popsicle sticks wedged between the case and flywheel makes the job a lot easier.
Danny

[Bill2001]

Ah, those are a standard Shop item 'round here. I get them from Hobby Lobby in packs of 100-- super useful mixers, spreaders and goopers, as well as impromptu tools.

[dcooke007]

Bill2001,
I like to get mine at the super market. A little more work to remove the extra material and get to the actual stick though.

Danny

[viclioce]

That's where I get mine too Danny! ; D Victor

[Bill2001]

Couple of questions:

I like Kill Switches and might want to do Turn Signals on the Wombat eventually. I see that Strictly Hodaka carries both switches. Is there anything "better" than the stock switchgear?

I thought I had one that would fit (but didn't) and don't see one listed at SH, but where can I get the rear shock preload-adjuster tool for the Wombat (94)? The sleeve on the shock body that needs turning is 38mm (1.5") diam.

--Bill

[Dale]

Bill,
A rubber strap wrench works great to rotate the shock bodies.

[Bill2001]

That strap wrench would work. I've gotten spoiled by the little (portable) stamped hook-wrench on the IKONS. Not that I need to change the preload setting that much, I was getting ready to fiddle with settings. These shocks are old OEMs and although not slap-wore-out they are a little sproingy and will be replaced next year.

Thx

--Bill