Gears Not Engaging!!!

[viclioce]

I have good spark. She's acting like she almost wants to start but won't hang on long enough to complete a startup. I get like 2 or 3 sputters and then it won't continue. So I'm going to pull the carb and make sure the needle jet isn't worn out of round. If for no other reason, just to confirm.

I know that I have a smaller carb (24mm carb) on a cylinder which should have a 28mm, so the air flow is smaller and it's going to take smaller main jets for this elevation. I know I'm close and I've been talking regularly with Dan Cooke so I know I'll get there now. I'm also expecting my jet spread in the next couple of days. I got the kill switch installed so I can actually use it to test for the mains when they come. ; D Victor

[Zyx]

Does not start off the needle or needle jet. Starting cold, lever down, plunger up, you are using the start circuit, which massively overrides any jetting. I assume you are trying this lever down. Is the plug coming out wet or dry after the sputtering starts?

[Zyx]

Victor,

Here's an example of just how much the carb jetting does not have to do with starting a Hodaka:

I once had a customer Hodaka engine out of the frame, laying on the floor, carb removed. For reason I can't recall, I hooked up the spark plug lead and, holding the engine down with one hand, pumped the kick lever with the other. It started and screamed bloody murder for ten seconds. No carburetor at all. Scared the shite out of me.

So jetting has just about no effect on the ability to start and sustain running. It does have an effect on how well it runs, but not on how well it starts cold.

[viclioce]

Greg. Just providing info at this point. I changed the pilot jet early on. The OEM CONFIG for the model 93 carb I have, called for a #30 pilot jet, and it had a #40 in the carb. I believe that's the reason it was running so rich at idle that it would start cold without the choke and then would stall out when it was warm.

With the #30 pilot jet I brought it back to OEM config at least for that jet. It started easily and idled well, and was getting closer to running better when it quit on me and fouled the plug. I don't know if I need to adjust the air screw? It wants to almost start but won't complete a start now.

But it's not electrical. I'm getting a visually strong spark. The plug is gapped at .024-25 and its new again. It's also clean and not fouled, yet. You can here it try to start, but not long enough to keep it going. I had adjusted the air screw a bit more but I have to check which way because it's been too many days and I forget. I also dropped to be idle down because the idle was too high. Then I rode it until it fouled.

I ordered a kill switch which I have now installed and I also am ready to put the tank back on.

But I want to pull the needle jet out and make sure it's not worn out of round, which would cause uneven fuel flow and make it near impossible to jet correctly if it is. I have spare needle jets and need to confirm what size is in there and what sizes I have. So that's where I am at this point. I stopped working on it while I await the parts I ordered. All I'm waiting on now is the set of many jets I ordered.

So I guess in answer to your last post, I'm just updating what's going on and where I'm at with everything, for whomever might be wondering or interested. ; D Victor

[viclioce]

So are you telling me that if the carb has too big a pilot jet for it to maintain an idle that it won't affect the bikes ability to start?

I don't understand how the could have happened if there was no fuel supply to the motor. But hey... I guess what they mean by "welcome to vintage motorcycles!" ; D Victor

[Zyx]

So are you telling me that if the carb has too big a pilot jet for it to maintain an idle that it won't affect the bikes ability to start?

I don't understand how the could have happened if there was no fuel supply to the motor. But hey... I guess what they mean by "welcome to vintage motorcycles!" ; D Victor

Correct as to your first question.

Second question, presence of fuel is important, passage of fuel into the engine is also important. One does not guarantee the other. If you are trying to start with the lever down, in the cold start position, and the circuit is not plugged up, that circuit will provide, all alone, all the fuel it needs to start and to run until warm.

[Dale]

Victor,
I have found that if the pilot circuit provides too much fuel, that the motor can be hard to start. I have had 4 examples of bikes that will not fire at all with the kick starter, when cold, but typically will start right off with a bump start. Sometimes I can get a kick start from a fresh plug.

Three of my examples are stock Road Toads so I am talking apples to your orange here a bit. The Road Toad standard pilot is 50. Changing the pilot to 40 improved the starting in each case. Changing to 35 eliminated the situation entirely. All 3 of my Toads now start in one or two kicks, idle great and hum down the road as they should.

The warning here is that now that the pilot is leaner, the rest of the jetting must be adjusted. The last thing that you want is any lean condition that could seize your motor! The air screw should provide your best idle at 1 1/2 to 2 turns out. If the air screw provides the best idle at less than one turn out, then the pilot has gone too small.

The question to me is, are you finding the plugs to be wet after an attempt to start? And, are you positive that you are not applying any throttle as you kick it over? There are two things that I can think of that defeat the starting circuit. One is a slight twist of the throttle grip and the other is if the idle screw is turned in too far. Either with lift the slide enough to eliminate the starting circuit.

My 2 cents,
Dale

[Dale]

Victor,
My second thought is concerning AZ's comment about eliminating the castor oil. I would take that idea seriously. Castor oil provides a whole different set of variables that are not needed for a non-race bike. If you do make a switch, be sure to drain everthing as AZ stated.
Dale

[viclioce]

Dale, that was my first experience as well. The carb I have is a 24mm but not stock to the 125. It's for a 100 and it has a smaller air flow. The carb had a #40 pilot jet and it was way too rich! It started but it started without the choke and would flood when the engine warmed up. Changing from a 40 to a 30 made it start easier and it allowed me to start with the choke enabled. Then when warmed it could be shut off without the bike stalling. It has a 140 main jet but this still appears to be too rich for proper running. So I've ordered some smaller jets in 5 unit intervals down to a 100. I don't anticipate going all the way down to a 100 but I figured better to get more than not enough and have to wait again for more to show up. ; D Victor

[viclioce]

For those who are curious, this is the oil I am using. It's Castor 927 & this is the specs on it.

Castor 927 is a unique blend of highly refined castor oil, a specially prepared synthetic and an additive system that reduces carbon and gum formation and provides excellent rust & corrosion protection. Castor 927 also contains an exclusive additive that keeps power valves cleaner and working properly. For all of us that wish to keep our air and water cleaner, Castor 927 is biodegradable. Castor 927 keeps on lubricating; where other lubricants turn to carbon or vaporize, and provides extra protection on cylinder walls, bearing journals and other critical areas at temperatures much higher than other lubricants.

Color D 1500 Yellow
Gravity °A.P.I.17.6
Viscosity SUS @ 100°F617
Viscosity SUS @ 210°F73
Viscosity cSt @ 40°C133.1
Viscosity cSt @ 100°C 13.79
Pour Point °F-5
Flash Point °F420
Fire Point °F480
Viscosity Index 99
SAE Viscosity 40

So I assuming there's less of a chance of early breakdown of this oil. If I'm not correct, let me know and I will go use the Yamaha 2 Stroke oil I also have. ; D Victor

[Zyx]

Castor oil isn't made by a manufacturer, it is derived from castor beans, and its properties can't be changed by chemistry. The additive package can be changed, and the carrier oil, synthetic, is nice, but it is still a castor oil blend. Just as any vegetable oil can be emulsified so it stays in suspension longer, like using egg yolk in a salad dressing, it is still a suspension, and will eventually fall out of suspension if it sits around. Perhaps the modern castor blend is better than it was forty years back, but it is still castor oil, so the question is " why castor?"

Castor was and is used because it is pyrophyllic. It seaks heat. That's a good thing. It's resistance to abrasion, and it's lubricating properties suck, which is why it is blended with synthetic oil. I also like the smell, because I used to fly model airplanes, and it reminds me of my childhood, but that isn't a reason to use it.

As a racing oil, it will help a hot running engine survive punishment in the short term, so it is okay for that purpose. For general use, everyone from Harry Taylor down recommends Yamalube 2.

What the castor manufacturer isn't saying is to what degree you need to rejet because of using this oil. I don't know, either. So I wouldn't use it until the bike is running right. Then you can experiment with exotics.

[taber hodaka]

Castor oil smells good. It is hard to mix with fuel it requires extra effort. You cannot put it in a gas tank that has other mix, Your carb also needs to be free of regular premix. For fun riding on occasion I think it would be a disaster. I would tune the engine with regular mix before I tried castor. I am not trying to be negative here but these are my thoughts====Clarence

[hodakamax]

Early on in the Hodaka business we used castor oil in race engines probably because the next best thing was outboard engine oil. Lubricants of today are far superior to their counterparts of the past and castor oil. Another thing no one has mentioned is castor oil leaves major deposits of carbon in the exhaust port and exhaust system. Exhaust ports of street/trail bikes using castor oil required frequent cleaning. I can't imagine what was going on in the muffler!---I too flew model airplanes and I can remember that smell to this day--good memories--

My story

Maxie

[Zyx]

I did a bit of research on modern castor blends, in this case 927 blend I think Victor is using. The manufacturer does not post the pros and cons of its own product. None of them do. But the oil has been independently tested within the past ten years.

The test review I read states that castor has excellent film strength, which is the reverse of what I said earlier. I will concede that point to someone who has tested the oil with a lot more science than I have. But everything else said here by me and others is still valid.

Castor oil is dirty, which means that you have to clean your top end more often than you otherwise would. Even those who use it and swear by it use it for racing, not for every day use. Also, it has to be mixed at different ratios for high rpm use and for lower rpm use. One result I saw was that they mixed 20:1 for racing, and 40:1 for street use. This kind of focused mixing is impractical for most folks. Even the guys who tested it in racing and street use for a year said it was not practical,for most people.

It still does not like sitting around in a premix. It is not only hard to get it to mix to start with, but won't reliably stay mixed, which means you have to shake your bike around vigorously every day, or only put in the tank what you will use that day. Racers still mix one day at a time. This is highly impractical for the average rider.

The synthetic carrier oil is also doing yeoman's duty in lubricatig the engine, but those who tested the 927 did not mention what work is shared by the carrier oil. Probably because there is no way outside of a lab to do so. What they did say is that older blends used bright stock, which is a cheap petroleum product that unfortunately smokes a lot, whereas synthetic smokes much less. But oil is oil and even the carrier does a part of the lubricating, we just don't know how much.

Also mentioned is that using 927 generally requires rejetting. Not a bonus under the current situation because now even fresh premix 927 is adding a variable that can't be accounted for without sound jetting to start with.

While there are attractive upsides to using castor oil, for daily use there is almost no one who says it is a good match. I would still suggest, then, that Victor switch to Yamalube 2 or similar, clean the tank and carb thoroughly before putting fresh mix in, and stick with synthetic until it is running right

[viclioce]

OK Greg. I will stop using the Castor 927 and use the Yamalube 2. Should I still mix it 36:1 or some other ratio? ; D Victori

[Zyx]

Read this article. It has tons of good info on mix ratios and the needs of 2-stroke air cooled engines. It also identifies the pros and cons of 927.

http://www.klemmvintage.com/oils.htm

[Zyx]

I have been mixing at 32:1. But after reading the article, I am contemplating more oil in the mix, maybe even 20:1.

[rtboone]

Victor

Have you done a compression test? If not, this is really easy to do, and will verify if low compression is contributing to your problem. It should be around 150 lbs with the throttle held open and the gauge screwed into the spark plug hole.
Also- just curious - Are you using both piston rings and did you check the ring end gap ( a good thing to do ) and does your piston have any holes in the intake side of the skirt like a piston from a model 03 ( not a good thing for your engine) ?

Good luck

Tom

[Zyx]

Compression at 7,000' feet will run low even on a good top end. If it should be 150, you might see only 140 or 130. If you have that much I would not be concerned. Lower than that, squirt in a bit of oil into the plug hole and check again. If it jumps way up, rings are bad, are stuck in the lands, or tolerances are out of line. I would hope with a fresh top end you have no compression issues, but it should be checked every time you overhaul a top end. Doesn't matter who did it, checking compression after a build is good procedure.

Advanced timing will cause the symptoms you describe, sputtering but not starting. Advanced timing can be caused by setting the gap too wide on the points, and since you set your timing by gap, if I understand correctly, you should revisit the timing. Use a multimeter on resistance or continuity, connected ton the blue and black wires coming out of the mag. Resistance goes infinite when the points open. The timing marks should align at that event. Mark on the flywheel matches right hand mark on the case. If they don't, adjust the gap until they do. Don't worry about measuring the gap, set the timing by point break and let the gap be what it is.

[Larry S]

I disagree with most everything that has been said about Castor. I've been running Maxima Castor 927 for about five years in four Hodakas and have never had an oil related problem.

I mix it 40-1 and am running it in an Ace 100 B, a Combat Wombat, 97 Super Rat MX racer and a Hodaka powered Rokon trailbreaker. The Super Rat and the Trailbreaker take the most abuse. I have four racing seasons on the Rat and it's still running strong. The Trailbreaker is traveling so slow that air coolant isn't that efficient. Imagine pulling a long 1-1 uphill at about 2 MPH. I ride the Ace 100B almost every day, and the Combat Wombat is my cow trail bike.

I don't think it's fair to compare a modern Castor Based oil to the old Blenzall or Castrol R Racing.

One thing we can all agree on, it smells good. Victor, I think you are safe to continue running it. I would recommend 40-1.

Larry S

[Zyx]

Larry,

Remember, you live in Lodi, victor lives in Santa Fe, an altitude difference of over 6,000 feet, plus a temperature shift that puts castor oil at the precipitation point on many a day, less than 50 degrees.

Lots of folks have run castor oil, or 927, for a long time. You have had good luck. We were discussing the properties of castor oil, which are not in dispute in the 2-stroke world, anecdotal experiences notwithstanding.

If you like using 927, use it. Victor is having multiple issues with his bike, including probable misjetting. Using castor blends frequently require small shifts in jetting. Until Victor gets his engine running right, and his jets sorted out, using month old castor premix is not advisable.

927 is not a castor oil in the classic sense. Castor is added to 927 as an additive presumptively because it is heat tolerant and so on, but used in very low percentages, it is questionable whether castor adds anything to the synthetic base oil in 927 or does not. However, we don't have a means of sorting out the differences even small quantities of castor can cause, so we are trying to limit the variables until his bike runs right. After that, if he wants to run 927, or Castrol R, or Klotz, that's his choice. Until then, though, there are too many plates spinning here. Using standard 2-stroke premix for now eliminates a variable because oils like Yamalube R don't precipitate out at moderate temperatures, do stay mixed in gasoline very nicely, and provide all the protection the engine needs.

I used to race Green/Gold mix. It was a high concentration castor oil blend, and it did give me a bit more power and faster throttle response. But that was racing. The gas never stayed in the tank even overnight. Even if 927 has less than 10% castor, that is still 10 % that can fall out of suspension. If someone wants to take that chance in a low demand sport bike, fine with me as long as they know what the risks are and what the upside can be by using 927. So far, all I have heard about it that I would agree with is it smells nice. Otherwise, I don't see the benefit of using castor as an oil additive instead of a base oil.

[hodakamax]

Hey Larry, good report. My report was from 45 years ago, I'm sure things have changed since my using of Blenzall in the old racers. Carbon in the exhaust port was the problem of the day and that's what I remember. I must add though I'm a fan of "meets all requirements" and all the "good" 2-stroke oils do that today. I have no problems with Yamalube 2R mixed 32:1 so it does not seem to be an issue. I certainly respect your opinion and we all have our favorites! Thanks for your opinion based upon "real world" trials. Keep up the good work!

Maxie

PS-- I can still remember the smell and scream of those .049 engines on our model airplanes!

[viclioce]

OK, I had been thinking the same thing about the timing. I was wondering if it might have retarded. I was afraid to make the screw too tight, and it was an all of a sudden thing. I'm going to check the points tomorrow and see if I can reset it like I did last time but try to tighten the retention screw a bit more. We'll see how it goes. ; D Victor

[Zyx]

Increasing the gap advances timing, decreasing it retards timing. There is no one correct gap measurement, which is why gap is stated as a range. That range puts the timing somewhere near correct as opposed to way off. Once you have an approximate timing by setting the gap, you verify actual timing by checking for point break at the timing mark.

Since you already set the gap, you are close. Now you need to verify actual timing. Use the multimeter across the black and blue leads and see where your timing is. If it is too soon (advanced) reduce the gap slightly. If retarded, open the gap slightly. Keep at it until the points open with the flywheel and right hand mark aligned.

You can set the tension screw just tight enough that the points don't slip when the flywheel is rotated. Once you have the timing right, then tighten the screw. Doesn't need to be super tight. Just firm pressure with a screwdriver. Then verify timing one more time. You're done.

As I mentioned retarded timing starts easily, but runs poorly. Advanced timing is a bitch to start,mand tends to scream when running to the point that sometimes you can get it to knock, which is not good. Since yours sputters but won't start, if it isn't a bad spark, it is probably too advanced.

One thing about castor I forgot but read again today is that castor is hygroscopic. The castor picks up water from the atmosphere over time, and can hold up to six times its weight in water. Another one of the reasons we didn't keep castor premix overnight, and something that could be affecting your start issues. Once you get it right, you can go back to the 927.

[viclioce]

OK. I decided to pull the carb off again. Pulled the main jet and it looked OK. Pulled the pilot jet. Guess what? Almost completely clogged shut. Couldn't see light through it until I pushed a strand of copper wire through it!

So I'm off to a Dr. Appointment and bought some carb cleaner on the way there. As soon as I get home I am going to clean this little bugger!

I have to say I think Greg may have been right about the life expectancy of the Castor 927 after it's been mixed. When I mixed the oil with the gas the oil was honey colored and the gas was near clear. Yet when I drained it into a container the fuel mix was nearly a dark green!!! Spooky considering it was only in the tank for a week! So I got some synthetic two stroke oil and mixed a fresh batch.

So now, when I get the pilot jet cleaned and the carb back on, maybe she'll start and I can test the main jet properly by running the bike wide open and using the kill switch to stop the motor, pull the plug and see what it looks like!

Wish me luck! ; D Victor