Totally Frustrated!!!

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 12:47 pm

OK. Here's the deal. Put her all back together again! For the second time, I gave her one kick & the kick shaft loses ALL resistance! I'm really getting tired of this failing! Everyone suggested that it was the kick shaft bearing retainer failing.

However, upon disassembly, there was no damage to the kick shaft bearing retainer. In fact, at some point, someone put the newer heavy duty bearing retainer on the kick shaft.

It almost seems like one kick and one or more of the kick shaft bearings fall over. Everything is there on assembly. The 5 bearings, the retainer & the retainer clip. I'm holding it properly in place while installing it back into the casing, and making sure the bearings don't fall out of Their space. The bearings DO sit tightly against the teeth (or what ever the proper term for them is) on the kick shaft and hold it tightly in place when on the bench, so I do not know what could be causing the shaft to break free when it's assembled and I give it a kick.

I get one kick with resistance (and no, I'm not kicking it like an old Harley!), and then it ratchets in both directions. I'm really getting tired of pulling the bike & tranny apart again & again because this keeps happening. I am to the point where it should start, if the kick shaft will quit failing.

Oh yeah, if I reassemble and push slowly on the kick start with my hand it doesn't seem to come apart. Only when I give it enough with my foot to try & start the bike!

H E L P ! ! ! !

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:59 pm

Dear Help: (OK, not funny . . . but I had to take a shot at it

)

The following phrase is what I'm keying into . . . "and one or more of the kick shaft bearings fall over."

IF the following items are true . . . then I don't see any way anything could happen which would cause that choice of words . . . ie, kick shaft bearings (rollers) CAN'T fall over.

- Proper kick shaft for the engine
- "Ramps" on kick shaft which push the rollers "out" are not pitted/deeply worn
- Rollers are the correct diameter and length (sorry, can't measure one at the moment. Mayhaps someone can add that bit of information.)
- Proper heavy duty kick roller retainer (there are two sizes - one for the earlier Ace 100 engines and a larger one for the later 125cc engines and later 100cc engines too)
- Proper kick roller retainer hold snap (the clip which "grabs" the neck on the roller retainer) This hold snap must grip the neck reasonably firmly. The roller retainer must be able to turn inside the hold snap . . . but there must be a good bit of resistance to the rotation.
- All things properly assembled - especially the hold snap properly registered in its slot as the kick shaft assembly is installed in the case.

Tell me more about kick shaft rollers falling over. From my point of view . . . they can't do that. So I don't really understand what you are describing with that phrase.

Ed
PS: Take a deep breath. This WILL work out. But lets talk about it a bit before you split the cases again . . . then be prepared to 1) measure things and post information and talk some more before re-assembly and (maybe) 2) post photos so we can see what you see.

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:59 pm

PPS: What model engine is this?

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:43 pm

Ok. It's a FrankenBike! The engine itself is a model 94 bottom end with a model 95 top end. That's the way I got it!

When I say "Bearings falling over" it's for lack of a better way of expressing it. I said "it FEELS like it" as in the resistance leaves the kick arm. I can't say that is what the rollers are actually doing. I can't see through the cases! LOL! But when I have the kick shaft out, the rollers do seem to properly lock against the Ramps as you called them.

I'm beginning to wonder if it is the retainer clip not locking into place. If it fits loosely, would that cause the shaft to brake free and not hold the rollers tightly against the ramps? I can tell you that when inserting the kick shaft back into the casing on the right side as pictured in the shop manual, I do have to hold the clip in place or the bearing retainer will drop and the rollers fall out. Also, I don't feel anything like the clip locking into a groove on the shaft when assembling.

I have a second kick shaft assembly which I got with a second bottom end I bought. I can tell that the bearing retainer is the heavy duty one by comparison with the second kick shaft, as the retainer on the second shaft is both thinner and lighter in weight. I didn't notice whether or not the retainer clip snapped or locked into a groove on the kick shaft. But I will check. If his is the case, maybe the second retainer clip I have would lock in place better than the existing one. If not, then I will have to buy another clip.

I wish this had been mentioned previously. I have spent a lot more in buying parts, used, than I probably needed, under the assumption that my kick shaft bearing retainer broke. Live & learn I guess.

I also ride a Suzuki LC1500 and I am on a forum for that bike. No complaining, but, it seems we have a much better handle on the issues which typically plague this model on that forum. So I am just a bit taken aback that I'm not getting to the bottom of this as quickly. I DO, however, appreciate your guidance & advice. It's just getting quite frustrating at this point.

I'm fairly confident everything is the right size. The rollers are the same on both transmissions. Only the bearing retainer difference is viewed. What specifically do you think you need me to measure? I don't have a micrometer if you're looking for those kinds of measurements and would have to purchase one to measure that closely.

All I know is, it worked before. Then I started the bike, several times. Then the kickstart quit grabbing. So everyone who responded said "it's the kick shaft bearing retainer." But when I opened it up, there appeared to be nothing wrong with it. So I replaced the seals, one rusted main bearing and the bushings. Then reassbled. Then I had to open it again because the seal inside the countershaft was leaking. Replaced the seal and couldn't reassemble the control rod into the counter shaft because I couldn't get the spring clip on the end of the confro rod. So I sent it out to have it done and it was returned to me assembled. Put the tranny back together and had the issue we spoke about with the control rod not moving in and out. Added movement as you suggested and that issue resolved. But this one with the kick shaft persists. So I will have to disassemble and see if it's the retainer clip or not.

More to come....... Victor

socalhodaka · Post by **socalhodaka** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:17 pm

Take some pictures too and post them.

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:44 pm

The photo below shows the Kick Roller Retainer Hold Snap properly assembled on the original style Kick Roller Retainer.

There are no locking grooves . . . just simple spring pressure "grabbing" onto the neck of the kick roller retainer. This "grabbing on" friction is a necessary feature of the kick start system. The kick roller retainer can be rotated inside the hold snap, but there is significant friction (properly so). IF your hold snap does NOT grip the neck of the kick roller retainer, kick starter operation would be adversely affected.

At the moment I'm thinking you might have a hold snap which does not "grab on" to the neck of the kick roller retainer. If that is so, it would be the very FIRST time I've heard/bumped into that situation.

You must indeed hold the Kick Roller Retainer "up" inside the kick starter gear while installing the kick shaft in the case. If you relax your hold and one of the kick rollers falls out . . . you have to start over. The kick start system won't work with only four rollers . . . or if even one of the rollers is smaller diameter than the other four.

Ed
PS: Keep talkin' and we'll find out what the heck is wrong.

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:52 pm

PPS: The "loop" portion of the hold snap MUST also be properly registered in the case as shown in the Workshop Manual as the kick shaft assembly is inserted in the case . . . or things won't work right.

Sorry the photo is too wide.

Ed

hodakaguy · Post by **hodakaguy** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:20 am

AND make sure the whole assembly is seated all the way down. I made this mistake once.....

bchappy · Post by **bchappy** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 3:25 am

If you click on the picture above it will open up so you can read all of it.

Post by **Dale** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:04 am

Victor,
I need to comment on your remark comparing this forum to your Suzuki forum. The Hodaka audience is a smaller group of enthusiasts than that of the big four. But there is a significant difference. The Hodaka crowd is like family. It truly is. You will get your answers, but the experts out there aren't necessarily on their computers everyday or week for that matter. With Ed (Bullfrog) engaged with you on this issue, you have one of the best in your corner.

You are in the company of some really great people here.
Dale

olddogs · Post by **olddogs** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:37 am

I like to put the main shaft in first and stack in the first four gears smallest to largest. Use grease to hold the shift balls in the main shaft. I then put the kick shaft with the clip on the retainer cup through the case, lining the loop of the tension spring clip into the proper channel in the case half. Clip a pair of vise grips on the kick shaft on the other side of the case. This will keep the shaft and spring clip from popping out of its channel if you tip the engine over to far while assembling. Grease up the roller pins and stick them to the retainer cup. Then put the kick gear over the assembly, lining up the teeth on the opposite gear. You can then put the last gear on the stack, put your shims on the main shaft and kick gear and assemble. This method allows you to see that the spring loop stays seated in the proper indent in the case half.

AndyL · Post by **AndyL** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:08 am

Frustrating for sure. I have had to split a set of cases 4 times to correct something I have messed up before. Now I can do it (pull a motor, split the cases, re-assemble and re-install) in less than two hours. A bit more if I do it at a track.

Think of it as OJT.

Maybe a picture or three showing an actual case half with the kicker parts going together would help?

At the moment, all I can think of is that you may have the wrong kick roller retainer, or the wrong rollers. But if it worked before, then its should work now.

Triple check the order of the parts in the case the next time you split it with the diagram below. In the meantime, I will look for more actual pictures of a Wombat or Combat kicker shaft going back together.

I set the rollers (#29) in the retainer (#30) just before I slide the kicker gear (#28) over them, which holds them in place.

I know I have some pics like that some place, but cant locate them at the moment. All I can find is this:

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:45 am

OK, I think I'm beginning to understand the situation now. To this point, I have only been putting the clip on the end of the shaft and sliding it up to the bearing retainer. Now I am understanding that it needs to go OVER the narrow end of the bearing retainer. But if this is true, then it must be slipping on when pushing the two case halves together? Otherwise there wouldn't be enough clearance for the cases to close together, correct?

I will go forward with the assumption that the retainer clip is too loose. Some of you mention an intent or detent which also holds the clip. Is this in the casing interior? If so can you please describe in greater detail for me or supply a photo if possible?

I really do appreciate everyone's help and comments. To me it's looking more and more like its this clip that is the issue. I have a second kick shaft assembly which I can play with (actually two), and double check the installation with the second bottom end, if someone can show me the exact location of whatever indent or detent the clip hangs on to. I'm assuming at this point that it is something somewhere on the right half of the case?

Again, I appologise if I sounded ungrateful. It's been several months now working on this bike! I remember them from my youth, but in my younger days I rode Kawasaki and never tore his far into a motor or tranny with any other bike. It seemed fairly simple and straight forward looking at The manual. But of course, there's always the unpublished small details that seem to get you! You guys are great and I know with everyone's input and help I'll be able to finish her up.

So if anyone has a better picture of the assembly than the one in my copied shop manual, I'd appreciate that. Ignorance is certainly my biggest enemy here and now! ; ) Victor

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:03 am

ah-ha! We are making progress now!

1 The hold snap MUST be installed on the kick roller retainer (as shown in the photo I supplied, right half of photo)
2 The hold snap "loop" MUST be registered in the "slot" which is perfectly aligned with the rear most case alignment dowel (look closely at your manual, you should be able to see the loop lined up with the "slot" next to the dowel). (note that other photos on the same page of the Wombat Workshop Manual illustrate the hold snap installed on the kick roller retainer

)
3 Don't forget the spacers which slip on each end of the shaft (thin steel washers)

Ed

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:42 am

Ed. We obviously have different manuals! Mine is from Bill Cook at hodaka-parts.com. Which one are you using? Is there an online one? Mine doesn't show much. Just someone holding the kick shart assembly as its being inserted back I to the case. All it says is insert the first three gears on the counter shaft and then insert the kick shaft assembly. Not much else and no other pics. No wonder I've been having issues! ; ) Victor

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:49 am

I referred to the Official Hodaka Workshop Manual for the Wombat/Combat Wombat -- which is what you need for your engine.

Speaking of your engine . . . it is very much like mine. Wombat bottom end and Combat Wombat top end - a troooly nifty set up! Over drive 5th gear combined with more power from the Combat top end . . . nifty!

Ed

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:17 am

OK. Went out and got my second set of cases & another kick shaft. I saw on the second shaft where the clip is mounted over the narrow end of the retainer. also noticed a space, which looks basically like two ridges, at the back end of the right case. This space is just a little bit wider than the loop end of the clip. Is this where it is supposed to be inserted? If so, I've been missing that all along! It's closest to the back casing bushing, close to the 6:00 position in this photo. Is that where it goes?

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:23 am

OK Ed. So where is this "Official" manual? Is there an online resource to view it? Or is it something I purchase from Strictly Hodaka? Would like to know, would like to see how much different it is. ; ) Victor

olddogs · Post by **olddogs** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:11 pm

I think you finally figured it out. Without the loop between the 2 ridges running out from the dowel alignment locator pin, it does what you describe. It works once and thats it. I made the same error on a 250 engine once and had to tear it out. Much more work than a Wombat engine removal.

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:51 pm

Yes, I think so! Boy I hate being stupid! I went back and read thru my manual again and it said exactly the same thing! I was just reading thru it too fast, a bad habit I've never been able to correct! If I would just slow down and take my time and read more carefully/accurately, I wouldn't get myself into nearly as many jams! Oh well, live & learn, live & learn! I will let you all know how it turns out. One thing's for sure. I should be able to do it in record time this time! ; ) Victor

eichco1 · Post by **eichco1** » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:19 pm

Phast Phil · Post by **Phast Phil** » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:41 am

I love how Ed (Andy too) are able to walk anyone through engine repairs. However, they have to be determined and listen closely. Victor, we've all been through similar situations in our lives. Thank you Ed! You ARE the BEST!

Phil Ketchum

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 10:21 am

Update! Got her all apart again,stripping out 3 case bolts this time! Thankfully I had a complete spare set. Got the kickshaft back in its proper place & was dropping the cylinder back on the piston & broke the top (new) ring! Argh!!!

Off to order another set of rings and sit and wait for them to come in!!! : / Victor

Bullfrog · Post by **Bullfrog** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:35 am

Hmmm, sounds like the old timer's advice of, "Slow down, you'll go faster." might apply.

Ed
PS: . . . and there is also the question, "If you don't have the time to it right now, when will you have time to do it right?

viclioce · Post by **viclioce** » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:33 pm

Hey Ed aka Bullfrog! Wanted to ask your opinion. Since the rollers were fine, the hold snap was fine & the bearing retainer was fine as well, and there was no damage to the space into which the hold snap inserts on the case, is there any way the hold snap could have "jumped" out of position? I think that may have been what happened initially, but can't figure out if there is room with the casing closed for the hold snap to move out of position like that initially. There does not appear to be any damage to the ridges in the case which retains the hold snap. So I'm at a loss what happened. Just thinking out loud here...... ; ) Victor.

The Hodaka Club Forum

The Hodaka Club Forum

Totally Frustrated!!!

Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Re: Totally Frustrated!!!

Who is online