Road Toad contact points setting puzzle .....

[Alberta Mike]

First time back and posting after a few years I think. But I do end up reading stuff from Google searches.

Question today relates to info in my '76 Road Toad owner's manual (beginning frame H13201 & engine M01001). It gives two, quite different specs for the contact point setting.

Page 3 spec sheet - 0.012" to 0.014" (0.3 mm to 0.4 mm)
Page 12 ignition - instructions say to set 0.08" to 0.10" (0.2 mm to 0.25 mm)

All replies are welcome ...... Thanks, MIKE

[taber hodaka]

I will look at it too, but I will say the ,012 to ,014. Clarence

[Alberta Mike]

Taber .... as in Taber, Alberta correct?

[ossa95d]

Without having access to the manual, I suspect that your second set of numbers (which is actually 2.03mm - 2.54mm) is relating to the ignition timing before top dead center, not the point gap.

[Alberta Mike]

Pop (Ivan) ...... Here is exactly what is on each of those pages ...

Page 3 (spec page).... Contact breaker gap 0.012" to 0.14" (0.3mm to 0.4mm)
.... Firing Point (ignition timing) - 2,75mm before top dead center
Page 12 (timing instructions) .... The standard ignition timing is 24degrees 12 minutes (2.75mm or 0.108" before TDC)
.... The point gap should be 0.08" to 0..10" (0.20-0.25mm)

Obviously the TDC spec in mm or inches refers to the piston position in the cylinder.
I typed out "degrees" and "minutes". Those would refer to a 360 degree circular flywheel.
I didn't check but I assume those English to Metric measurement equivalents are correct.

My original post questioned the different point gaps on page 3 vs page 12.

[Dale]

I have run into this as well. My guess is that this was a result of the piston seizures that were occurring on the Road Toads. There were multiple changes made to gearing, carburetion and the mod to relieve the exhaust bridge. My guess is that they also suggested a retarded points setting. That is just my guess. I set my Toads to .012 to .014

[ossa95d]

The English to Metric conversions are not correct. They are off by a factor of 10. 0.08 " is about 2mm, and 0.10" is about 2.5mm. Hence my confusion. The 0.012 to 0.014 seems more in line with all of the other Hodaka model specs. Very interesting that the manual has this typo. 2mm to 2.5mm is a massive gap.

[taber hodaka]

Mike, Taber as in Taber Corn *** where are you, I'm in Kalispell MT. Clarence

[Alberta Mike]

Ivan: My typing mistake ...... the manual said 0.008 to 0.010 inch on page 12. Anyways, quite a difference comparing page 3 to page 12 for the breaker point gap. Sounds like 0,012 is what a guy should go with. I'm not an experienced mechanic for bikes or old cars but when I first saw the 0.008 spec I thought to myself that it sounded pretty tight. Was it here or on some other site I read that a good rule of thumb is the point gap is usually close to half the spark plug gap .... which is about right for my situation I guess.

[Alberta Mike]

Hi Clarence ..... just east of Edmonton .... Sherwood Park. I've got this 76 Road Toad that I've had for 31 years and only put on about 5 miles on it up and down the street, I've never registered or insured it. When I bought it in '93 it only had 1100 miles on the odometer, the fellow selling it got it from his parents who were snowbirds in Arizona and used it down there for trips to and from a nearby town. I'm not sure if it was purchased here or down there .... no kilometers on the speedometer. Not sure when that showed up on Canadian models. There were dealers up here back then ... unknown to me at the time.

[ossa95d]

Ahh, thank you Mike. I suspected that the number might have been intended to be .008 to .010, that would retard the timing as Dale had mentioned. It's still strange to have two different recommendations in the same manual without explanation. I have had two Road Toads and ran them both at 0.012 without issues, if that's any help. Sorry to have confused the issue even farther.

[dirty_rat]

Just as an aside, over the years I have found a few typo's or incorrect information in the Hodaka owners manuals and workshop manuals. When in doubt, I usually check a few sources and use the information that is listed the same most often.
As for the timing specifications, Hodaka came out with a Service Bulletin (HSB 21) on 03/24/1976 with updated timing specifications for all Hodaka models. The service bulletin is posted at hodaka-parts.com
Go to the Library tab - Technical tab - Hodaka Service tab - Service 21 tab.

[viclioce]

I have restored 2 Toad Toads. Both were set up with a points gap at .013 based on the .012-.014 listing. They both run great. Victor

[Alberta Mike]

Victor ..... our tanks are different, mine is a 76, maybe a newer style? Also different are the kick starters, mine does not have the loop in it, just a straight arm. For some reason I can't figure out how to post a photo. When I click on the add a photo icon, I just get an [img] showing up. I often think it could use more stroke on the down kick, starting engagement point seems a bit low.

[dirty_rat]

To add a photo go to "Full Editor & Preview" box on bottom of Reply. Click on it and write your post. Then go to the bottom and you will see a box with "Options" and "Attachments". Select Attachments and it gives you a box that says "Add files" Click on that and then locate and select the file (photograph) you want to add and select it. The file should then show as loaded. To verify, hit Preview.

As for your tank, the later Road Toads had a more hard edged tank. If you go to hodaka-parts.com and go to the library section it gives the specifications for all the Hodaka models, which includes a good photo of each.

[viclioce]

Yes. The 1976 is a Model 02 Road Toad, while mine are 1975 Model 99 Toads. 1976 was a tank change year for the Hodakas, leaving the toaster tanks behind and going to a more coffin shaped tank. The 02 Road Toad specs for the carb are what I use for jetting & tuning. This was recommended to me in the past. Victor

[taber hodaka]

Victor You stated 'The Road Toad specks for the carb are what I use for jetting and tuning". Can you tell us the process you use for jetting and tuning? Looking forward to Hodaka Days --------- Clarence

[viclioce]

Clarance. Even though I live at 7,000 feet in elevation, I still start with stock jetting. And yes, I follow the steps in the 125 Wombat manual! There’s a reason it’s published.

The biggest issues for me can be in the pilot and main jets. Stock pilot jet sizes seem to work well for me at this elevation, compared to others at lower elevations, who like to go bigger.

My 03 has a 94 bottom end with a 95 top end, but it was put together with a 94 piston. It had a 40 pilot and a 180 main jet. With the 40 pilot it would only start cold with the choke not engaged. But as it warmed up the bike wouldn’t stay running. I switched from the 40 pilot in it, back to a stock 25 pilot jet and the start up issues went away. Bike would now start with the choke engaged and as it warmed up I could close the choke and it would idle fine. But with the stock 94 piston, the 180 main was too rich. I kept dropping the main jet until the 4 stroking went away. It cleaned up nicely at 140. The specs for a 94 Wombat say a 140 or 160 main. So I’m guessing the 160 main might work fine at lower elevations.

My Toads are by the book for an 02 Toad with a 26mm carb. And I run a 26mm carb on my reeded Combat Wombat. I jetted it to the 03 Wombat carb settings. That bike really likes to move out at this elevation with the stock 03 Wombat jetting! And it has a 97 piston in it. Ed once told me the 26mn carbs actually move fuel more efficiently than a stock 28mm Combat Wombat carb.

My Aces all like a 95 main with a 25 pilot. Everything is good with the stock jetting using the 20mm Mikuni carb.

My 03 with a 95 cylinder and a 94 piston will be getting upgraded to a 95 piston port piston. I’ll have to re-jet the carb when I do the piston mod. Returning the 95 top end to piston port will likely require stock Combat Wombat carb jetting. I’ll be changing the carb from a 24mm to either a 28mm if I find one or I’ll use another 26mm spigot mount and go with the 03 Wombat jetting but probably go no bigger than a 180 main jet as a starting point since it won’t be reeded. Victor

[Bullfrog]

I'm interested in seeing what it was that you are saying I said about 26mm carbs VS 28mm carbs.

I suspect there is a bit more nuance than what is being attributed.
Ed

[viclioce]

As I recall, your words were the 26mm spigot carb, on the Toads & 03 Wombat, moves fuel more efficiently than the 28mm CW carb. That’s my recollection of the conversation, here on the forum. Victor

[Bullfrog]

I think you must have misunderstood me. Cuz, I don't believe that . . . and I don't think I said that. There ARE some differences in the way the two carbs perform on Hodie 125's and the sorts of issuess they may present to owners doing tuning . . . but I don't think I said (or meant) what you have attributed to me.
Ed
PS: I'm taking issue with the comment because it may mislead others to go down some "effeciency" rabbit hole.

[viclioce]

OK. Well as I said, that’s what I recall. I typically don’t make things up. But I do take pride in my memory. I’d have to search back to find the discussion… but not likely to be done. Victor

[Bullfrog]

Yeah, I get that. I don't want to spend the time required to find the post you are thinking of either. But I would recommend that you "un-remember" the comment you have stored in memory because it is not helpful.
Ed

[Bullfrog]

So, I decided to do a single search on "26mm" to see what would come up. Found this from April 3, 2022.

"The stock 26mm carb from the Wombat (03) had "leaner" jets than what is listed for the CW 28mm carb partly because the air velocity going through the 26mm carb is higher than thru the 28mm unit. The higher velocity "draws" fuel through the jets more effectively, so "leaner" jets are capable of delivering the proper amount of fuel for the engine. This air flow velocity "thing" is why it is dangerous to compare jetting specs from different size carbs."

The above comment applies to ANY Mikuni round slide carburetor on a given engine which is smaller than another Mikuni round slide carburetor on the same engine. It is not a comment about moving fuel efficiently. It is a comment about the effectiveness of higher air velocity through the carburetor.
Ed

[Bullfrog]

PS: While ignoring the fact that the engine will have a harder time drawing air through the smaller the carburetor . . . so it will produce less peak HP.
Ed