Key Position/Brake Switch Question

[TheAceWombat]

So, today I was working on the lighting on my bike, and as I made progress I noticed some weird behaviors when it came to the taillight and when it does/doesn't turn on.

For context, I have an Ace 100 B+ with a Wombat engine.

My keyswitch, as far as I'm aware, has these positions from left to right:
Off/Daylight/Night mode

The weird thing about the bike is that in the "daylight" position, when I use the front brake (the only one with a switch, at least at the moment), the taillight doesn't come on. Well, it does, but it is extremely dim. Is there something wrong with my taillight or was using a 12v bulb just a bad choice? It's odd because when I switch to "night mode," the taillight is VERY bright when I use the front brake. So it clearly gets enough power then.

Other question. Is the Ace 100 B+ supposed to have a brake switch on the front and back? In my owner's manual (in the pictures I could find) there was no brake switch visible on the hubs. Plus, my front brake switch looks aftermarket, so it seems like there wasn't anything there before. The back hub on my bike has no spot that looks like a clear mounting hole either.

Any info about the bike would help.

[taber hodaka]

No rear brake switch on the rear hub, it is attached on the right side on the swing arm by the pivot. You will find a picture of it in your owners manual, on the same page as the battery and key switch. Clarence

[Al Harpster]

A 12 volt bulb would be sub optimal.

But

Your comment about the daylight vs night results are puzzling.

If you'd email me I'll send you the Workshop Manual for the B+ regarding electrical system. I have them in jpeg format. Can email them to you.

This might be of some help.

The brake light operates on the battery.

The Tail light is powered only by the alternator coil.

aharpsteratcopperdotnet

[Stever]

Not Hodaka specific, but your post triggered a memory.

I recall from my long ago days as a mechanic in a large Kawasaki shop that we would see an occasional problem with a key switch that would not work in one position, or the bike would have odd or intermittent electrical problems. It sometimes turned out that a soldered connection on the base of the switch was loose or detached. I think the problem was pretty much on ’76 model KZ400s. Anyway, it just took a few minutes to re-solder it correctly. I would re-solder each joint for good measure.

I don't have an Ace, but I think that the wire connections on the base of the Ace switch are made the same way, the end of the wire is simply soldered to a contact. You might want to check them, after so many years one could be corroded or loose, causing a loss of current flow.

[JPark]

A 12v tail light bulb works better than you would think, BUT... it also draws huge current for not much light, thus running the battery down way faster than the generator can keep up. I got one with a taillight I installed and had lots of grief until I pulled the dusty old bulb out to find it was a 1034.

The max voltage output of the alternator is designed to not blow the bulb but still be able to charge the battery. It's a narrow window and if the switch is not well grounded - it's the main ground for things - the voltage will drop and go below the minimum needed to get electrons into the battery. It's a 6.3V battery but you need about 7V to get flow into it because of the internal battery resistance. A bad ground giving a voltage drop of .5V will be enough to sabotage the charging. Been there, too.

The switch grounds through the mount which is onto painted [or rusty] metal. It is tempting to check this connection with an ohmmeter, but that would only show the resistance at some milliamp current. You would have to test voltage drop when running, or just make sure there is bare metal contact by scraping the paint away. The switch IS the negative battery ground. Bizarre, but it works.

If you have the high output stator from the Wombat on there you will need to use the appropriate headlight bulb and consider using the voltage regulator that they used on the later models to keep electrical exuberance in check.

[JPark]

When you use Night you switch on the other half of the lighting coil. The lighting is AC but the battery and brake light are DC with both systems interconnected but independent. As long as everything is connected properly it works, but you need to follow the official system. On Day you've only got half the lighting coil connected and that isn't enough to get much out of a 12v bulb.

[TheAceWombat]

Thank you guys for the help once again.

A) I think my bike is missing the brake switch for the rear. Luckily I can test the circuit still because I found the wires a while ago when looking things over. Thanks for telling me about the correct location of things.

B) Al, I will email you. I'm a bit confused how the brake lights work perfectly on my bike in the "night mode," because I don't have a battery hooked up AT ALL. My best guess is that running that so-called "emergency switch" allows it to run only off the alternator... Right?

C)Stever, thanks for the keyswitch advice. That would be a good thing to clear up now before I try to hunt down every other possible issue and nothing turns up.

D) Jpark, my plan at this point is to use this 12v halogen bulb that we have sitting around because it's free. I'm not clear on what you mean by the "halves" of the coil. Isn't the whole stator being utilized all at once?? Plus, can't it all be run on AC with the emergency switch in the right position?

Although, what you said (Jpark) about the "Day" mode and the lighting coil may explain why the output is extremely weak on the 12v bulb. In my mind, it's because it needs the battery to make up for the other voltage it isn't getting. I thought the emergency switch already did this though... Basically, there are still a lot of contradictions and mysteries with this for me.

[TheAceWombat]

By the way, if anyone could help me understand the meaning of the layout of the keyswitch on this diagram,
http://hodakapartsidaho.com/wp-content/ ... SCAN-4.pdf
it would be greatly appreciated. I can only understand the simple parts of the diagram, and whatever is going on with the keyswitch there isn't making much sense to me. Some of these wiring things are a bit overwhelming for me since I'm a beginner.

[JPark]

In OFF the IG is connected to ground; essentially a kill switch. In first or DAY position the BAT terminal is connected to ground. This activates the DC system and makes things connected to the battery work such as brake light and horn.

The second position Night then connects HL and C2 to feed the alternator output to the headlight and taillight. C1 is always connected to the battery DC red wire system through the rectifier. SE doesn't go anywhere; may do something on another bike.

The 15W headlight plus the 5W taillight plus the 20W brake light add up to 35W which pretty much pins the alternator at redline so you won't get much but dim at idle. Hence the battery.

Page 89 of the manual shows this, but doesn't really explain what's going on.

[JPark]

Thank you guys for the help once again.

A) I think my bike is missing the brake switch for the rear. Luckily I can test the circuit still because I found the wires a while ago when looking things over. Thanks for telling me about the correct location of things.

B) Al, I will email you. I'm a bit confused how the brake lights work perfectly on my bike in the "night mode," because I don't have a battery hooked up AT ALL. My best guess is that running that so-called "emergency switch" allows it to run only off the alternator... Right?

C)Stever, thanks for the keyswitch advice. That would be a good thing to clear up now before I try to hunt down every other possible issue and nothing turns up.

D) Jpark, my plan at this point is to use this 12v halogen bulb that we have sitting around because it's free. I'm not clear on what you mean by the "halves" of the coil. Isn't the whole stator being utilized all at once?? Plus, can't it all be run on AC with the emergency switch in the right position?

Although, what you said (Jpark) about the "Day" mode and the lighting coil may explain why the output is extremely weak on the 12v bulb. In my mind, it's because it needs the battery to make up for the other voltage it isn't getting. I thought the emergency switch already did this though... Basically, there are still a lot of contradictions and mysteries with this for me.

The lighting coil has a centre tap which goes to ground. It acts like two coils with a common ground. One side is used for the battery charging and the DC brake light and horn. The emergency switch just combines the output of the two sides together, which works if you aren't running a battery but won't give you much at idle. If you are running a battery it will drain it faster than the battery can charge unless you're running full revs all the time.

Emergency was to give you some visibility while you walked your out of gas bike off the freeway.

I think you'll just have to give up on the 12V bulb idea. Because it's free isn't a valid reason to use it. It won't work properly. You also can't use bulbs with more wattage than the alternator can feed. Electrical systems are all about balanced components. 6v bulbs on 12v go poof. 12v bulbs on 6v go dim.

[TheAceWombat]

Thank you for the explanation Jpark. Now that I got a better look at the stator from some pictures (I haven't opened up my engine) I am understanding better. When is the switch combining the output of the two coils together? In the DC or AC position? I'd think the AC because, of course, the DC position is for when the bike isn't running. What is confusing about this is it makes me think that then the battery wouldn't be charging if both coils' outputs were combined.

Believe it or not, the 12v will probably work. It has been able to light pretty bright. Regardless, I can keep using them for testing. And yes, I understand the wattage has to all add up. If it works, great. If it doesn't, new plan. I'll get finished either way.

So, in the daylight position, what is the stator feeding? Just charging the battery and lighting the headlight? If I'm remembering right, the brake light does not work in the daylight position for me. This makes perfect sense of course since I don't have battery. Also worth mentioning, in this position the taillight doesn't light either. I'm guessing that's normal since it's supposed to be used during the day.

What is the C1 terminal responsible for? I'm curious if it's just charging or if it does more. Overall though, knowing these things is really giving me a clearer picture of what's going on. I think it'd basically function like normal if I added a battery.

[TheAceWombat]

Ok, so here's the story of what happened today. I got it working with those 12v bulbs. Remember, I still have no battery. I think this may play a role in what happened, I just don't know what that role is. Everything was fine, the bulbs were perfectly bright, EVEN at idle. But, then when I went to ride the bike and took the rpms up a bit while riding, the bulbs burnt out. This would be both the headlight and taillight. I was running in night mode when this happened, probably 5,000 rpm was enough to cook them. So, I went and measured with a multimeter the voltage at the headlight bucket which the bulb should have received. It said 20 ac volts. When I rev the engine a bit, it jumps to around 50v. Now I'm confused, considering that I thought the Wombat electronics would run on 6v. Obviously there is no voltage regulator in place or it is broken. I'm kind of thinking the battery may play a role in this, but like I said I'm not sure how. I just don't know what regulates voltage.

I also realize that the Ace 100 B+ wiring diagram in my manual doesn't have a regulator either. I've heard that stators put out fairly high raw voltage so no system would run on the raw output. This is how I'm guessing that the issue isn't lack of a working regulator. But that begs the question of what is going on and what did I do wrong?? I can't really take the next step until I can figure this out...

Plus I'm interested if anyone knows how my wiring harness appears to hook directly into what seems to be a fully wombat engine. Would the stator wires be the same?

[Dale]

Ok, so here's the story of what happened today. I got it working with those 12v bulbs. Remember, I still have no battery. I think this may play a role in what happened, I just don't know what that role is. Everything was fine, the bulbs were perfectly bright, EVEN at idle. But, then when I went to ride the bike and took the rpms up a bit while riding, the bulbs burnt out. This would be both the headlight and taillight. I was running in night mode when this happened, probably 5,000 rpm was enough to cook them. So, I went and measured with a multimeter the voltage at the headlight bucket which the bulb should have received. It said 20 ac volts. When I rev the engine a bit, it jumps to around 50v. Now I'm confused, considering that I thought the Wombat electronics would run on 6v. Obviously there is no voltage regulator in place or it is broken. I'm kind of thinking the battery may play a role in this, but like I said I'm not sure how. I just don't know what regulates voltage.

I also realize that the Ace 100 B+ wiring diagram in my manual doesn't have a regulator either. I've heard that stators put out fairly high raw voltage so no system would run on the raw output. This is how I'm guessing that the issue isn't lack of a working regulator. But that begs the question of what is going on and what did I do wrong?? I can't really take the next step until I can figure this out...

Plus I'm interested if anyone knows how my wiring harness appears to hook directly into what seems to be a fully wombat engine. Would the stator wires be the same?

I have not had the time to compare in detail the differences between the Ace 100 B+ wiring harness and the Wombat engine so I can't be sure if that is a direct connect or not. Take some time to compare the wiring diagrams for both.

As for the voltage output, don't trust the AC reading of a volt meter. The rectified AC is not easily read by an AC volt meter and will vary depending on the meter used. You would really need to look at it with an oscilloscope to get an accurate evaluation. The fact that you are getting AC is the main thing. One thing is for certain, you must add a 6 volt regulator to the green AC circuit to bleed off anything above 6 volts to ground. Even more critical if your bike still has the B+ headlamp as it is a lower wattage bulb than the Wombat.

The model 99 Road Toads where the first models to have regulators. The model 94A Wombat had a current limiter but that was not a very good solution. So you can obtain a Road Toad regulator or an aftermarket 6 volt regulator to take care of the excess voltage.

And, install a battery. The lighting will drive you nuts without a fully charged battery in place!

[Larry S]

On the Ace 100 B+ there is no voltage regulator. The battery acted as the voltage regulator and powers the brake light and horn. Without a battery you won't have a brake light or horn and the other lights won't last long.

I am also running a 94 Wombat in my Ace 100 B+. The electrical connections were a direct plug in.

Larry S

[TheAceWombat]

Thanks for the help everyone, I was able to get most of the parts I need from Bruce Young (road toad limiter, brake switch, fuse link). I've been hung up on actually finishing the project for a while because of school, but I'm planning to get it done soon for spring.

However, I need a battery and have done some research but I'm still unclear what would be best to buy. Do you guys have recommendations for the type/brand/model of battery to use?
I'm thinking I want something with the bullet connectors already there but it also seems like it isn't worth fiddling with the acid type of batteries when I could probably use a more modern style and buy connectors separately. Not really sure though.

[viclioce]

1154 are the 6v tail light bulbs I buy at both O’Riley’s & Autozone. They work well and meet system needs. They are designed for 6 volt systems. Victor

[TheAceWombat]

Thanks for the bulb info, I'm still unclear on the battery stuff though. Do you think this would work?
https://www.amazon.com/Motobatt-MBT6N4- ... 09&sr=8-26

[viclioce]

I guess it would. Not really familiar with the Mottobatt products. Victor