Clutch issues....

[viclioce]

1. My approach to this clutch over the past 6 months means I am going terribly slow.

2. Kindly explain to me how you determined, from pictures and illustrations without dimensions, and without seeing my clutch cage, that this is a 994004 clutch cage?

Where on the clutch cage is the part number stamped? I didn’t see a part number on the cage anywhere. I do see Ace part numbers on the top and bottom covers, but not on the cage.

I’m not trying to be obstinate. I’m asking sincere questions. The only way I could go any ‘slower’ would be to drain the oil one day, pull the clutch nut the second day, and remove one clutch screw a day for an additional 7 day's. We both no that’s not going to provide any additional useful information. Nor is it going to determine the clutch size.

The photos provided by Dirty Rat show that an Ace clutch cage is between 20 & 21mm thick. I measured mine and indicated it was 20.67mm in thickness. If indeed this was a 994004 Road Toad cage, wouldn’t it at least have measured smaller than 20.67mm, by at lest the thickness of a clutch plate & friction disc thickness combined?

If you’re saying try 3 discs and 2 plates and see if it works, then I’ll give it a try. Certainly couldn’t do anything more than slow the process of discovery down. If it works, I’ll let you know. However, real measurements of real parts give me more to go on than illustrations with non-real parts & card board, even if it’s just for discussion purposes.

And no, I’m not mad or upset, just frustrated. I’ve put a lot of SLOW, unsuccessful time into this clutch issue. Your points are well taken, even when you don’t believe I’m listening. Victor

[Dale]

Go back to my post on July 19th and read it. If the 31mm screws are the perfect fit for your current configuration of parts, then the cage is for the models listed in that post (Road Toads and painted tank Dirt Squirt). Is this guaranteed? No it is not, but it is a best guess due to the information that we have.
If I owned an Ace100 B or Ace100 B+, I would pull the clutch and measure the components for you, but unfortunately I don't. So providing exact measurements of a known working model is tough. That is why I also suggested that you might consider pulling the clutch on your B+ and carefully compare each and every part.
Yes, working with pieces and parts of unknown items can be very frustrating. In the end it will make sense but getting there is another story. It is just part of the process.

[taber hodaka]

Perpetual motion clutch. Three clutch topics. Clutch Disc Spacer, 23 replies, 1514 views. Clutch Question, 30 replies, 3893 views. Clutch Issues, 49 replies, 1711 views for a total of 102 replies and 7,118 views. If a simple clutch is this complicated we could be scaring off some beginner that was thinking about getting a Hodaka running. Al offered to do it I will pay you $50.00 dollars if you let me do it and I will pay return postage. Victor we have got to get you on the road summer is wasting. Clarence

[Bullfrog]

Vic

I provided you with incontrovertible evidence by way of a photo that the height/thickness of the clutch cage is of PRIMARY importance regarding screw length and commented for the 2nd (or 3rd?) time that the screws were NOT problem. And your response was along the lines of -- you had already established that other parts were not the problem, so it must be the screws. (Did you say something about listening?)

I engaged in a multi-step process. KNOWING that the screws were not the cause of the problem, but that they were apparently the right length for the clutch you are working on -- I endeavored to find a clutch cage which was NOT for an ACE 100 or a Combat Wombat. After a bit of searching there it was! The Model 99 uses clutch cage #994004 . . . AND the 99 clutch uses 994009 screws. I was very lucky on the next step. There is a grungy model 99 fully assembled clutch under the rubble out in the garage. The assembled clutch measured 31.84mm from face of cover to end of screw, and the head of the screw was 0.84mm below "flush" in the cover. (Voila! 31mm screws, just like you have). Sorry, but I don't have the time to disassemble the clutch to give you a direct cage "thickness" measurement - but you have a Toad around there, you can check it out.

I'm gonna let you take it from here, I'm signing out on this thread. (But I'll be around if something else interesting comes up.)

Ed

[taber hodaka]

working on a clutch for 6 months? Talk of slowing down the process of discovery? Isn't there only one moving part inside a clutch that takes the pressure off the plates? Victor I would like to agree with you but then we would both be wrong. I am not sure that the clutch is even the problem at this point anyone else would have tried a proven clutch by now. Hard to follow your logic when you demand that screw length has a direct effect on clutch plate pressure. Anyway I would still pay you fifty dollar's and I will pay the return postage if you let me fix the clutch. I would first try it on my Ace 100 and make sure that you get back your clutch that function's, this would free you up for a new project. ---------------- Clarence PS call me if you have any concerns.

[Bullfrog]

DOH! There is one more thing I could do which might be helpful. Here is a photo of the stock 99 clutch from my garage. 31.84mm from tip of screw to face of cover on the left side of the clutch. Head of screw is .84mm below flush in the cover on the left side of the photo.

OK, now I'm signed out on this thread.

Ed

[viclioce]

OK. Thanks. I’m planning on pulling the clutch today. I’ll take an exact same measurement. I’ll also remove one plate, on disc, bringing the total down to 2 plates, 3 discs. And put it back in the bike and see what happens.

If I get good response and functionality at the lever, I will put oil in and try riding this bike and see if this clutch now works. If no success this go around, I am going to try buying a complete new clutch.

I want to thank both Al & Clarence who have offered to build the clutch for me. I’m convinced it’s still just an incorrect mixing of parts. I’ve successfully rebuilt clutches before.

It’s just frustrated the Heck out of me that this one has been so illusive to successful completion.

And I want to be signed out on this thread more than you!!! Victor

[olddogs]

You do not have a problem, you have an opportunity to find a solution. Everyone following your journey through clutchmania is learning something. Hanging in there with you to the end.

[viclioce]

One thing will come of all of this. I WILL be taking clutches apart and using my caliper to measure the thicknesses of each style clutch cage.

This is the one bit of information which has been missing in this discussion, excepting the 2 measurements provided by Dirty Rat. No one provided a cage thickness of a 99 stock clutch cage.

I will also inventory & MARK all my clutch cages, do that in the future, this mixture f unknown parts will not occur again.

So, I am going to personally take apart and measure a complete 92 clutch, a 94 clutch & a 99 clutch and provide dimensions for all of them.

Cages, screw length, friction disc, metal plate, screw length and put it all together in a tech tip with photos.

This will be a great reference for someone, like me, who has received a box full of different clutches, or who may have a motor assembled with a non-stock clutch which needs rebuilding.

And Yes, Bob Whitman, I’ll submit the tech tip!!! Victor

[matt glascock]

What a great idea!

[viclioce]

It would have been an even greater idea if it had been done before I started working on building a functional clutch for this Ace B.

In the past, the motors had, what I assumed to be both functional & the correct original clutch. This pair of motors, which were parted & assembled into one, did not meet that criteria.

Right now, I have 4 maybe 5 different clutches in addition to the ones in my 7 Hodakas. I don’t understand why the clutch cages aren’t labeled with a part number. I’m guessing maybe it’s because of the lack of a sufficient flat surface upon which to stamp a part number?

[matt glascock]

Good theory.

[viclioce]

Well, so the clutch measured 31.40mm just like Ed said his 99 clutch measured. Removed 1 plate & 1 disc. Reassembled. Also changed the pressure plate. Between the 2 changes I started getting a clutch lever which pulled like it should.

Then the bad luck creeped up on me. Difficulties adjusting the cable tension lead me to discover as pictured, inside the cable tensioner screw.... Ordered new cable.....

[viclioce]

While I was waiting for my clutch cable to come in, I rounded up all my clutches. In the search to see what I had, I found an Ace clutch. It had slotted screws measuring 35mm, had 3 plates & 4 discs and the discs were in good shape. So I took a chance and swapped out the clutch assembly.

Three .05 spacers, a good clutch disc and a new cable & I was able to ride the Ace B for the first time with no clutch slippage.

I now have an additional, unused, rebuilt Toad clutch, and another 5 different other clutches to pull apart, clean & inspect, measure and reassemble, to make both great notes as well as a Tech Tip which I will prepare for Bob Whitman for the next RR.

For clarification, my “misunderstanding regarding the screws“ was believing the shorter screws were pulling the top and bottom together compressing the springs.

Without the cages having part numbers, the only reference I had was of the 2 cages, an Ace cage & a Wombat cage & their actual thicknesses as provided early on.

I had no idea there was yet a 3rd cage thickness, of which there seems to be an assumption that I would automatically know this. The fact that this 3rd cage width was unknown to me, until Ed provided the picture of the 99 cage, was where I was falling short, information wise.

It appears that this was an assumption on some folks’ parts, that were sure I must have known, but did not.

I do want to say THANK YOU! Thank you to everyone who assisted and made offers to assist and/or rebuild this clutch. Happy riding! I’m on to my next build. A 1972 Super Rat! Victor