Clutch Question

[viclioce]

If the springs & ball inside the counter shaft are worn, will that cause the clutch to slip under load?

I didn’t rebuild the counter shaft and replace the internals. However, this is the first bike with which I’ve had clutch issues. Not sure where to go at this point. So advise is appreciated.

I did replace the shifter sliding pin because it was worn and not shifting smoothly between gears and some times jumping out of the space on the end of the control shaft.

So, what’s the consensus of opinion out there? Victor

[matt glascock]

Hi Victor, If the clutch is slipping, one of the first thing you will notice is the engine revs with no proportional change in ground speed. How does the bike sound and behave when this "slipping" event occurs? Any nasty, rattling, grinding noises? If so, the solution to the problem could be as simple as adjustment of the shifting mechanism.

[thrownchain]

No, they are separate issues.

[Bullfrog]

No. Clutch function (slipping) stands alone.

NOTE: A maximum acceleration shift from 4th to 5th may be a good way to REVEAL that the clutch is slipping - since that is just about the maximum "test" of the clutche's ability to interrupt power and then fully "lock up" again. But if the clutch is slipping, it is a clutch or clutch actuation issue (and nothing else).

Check for 1) lack of freeplay at the clutch lever on the engine. If there is NO freeplay, the clutch is not being allowed to fully engage. (NOTE: As clutch friction disks wear, the freeplay will be reduced.) 2) Overly worn clutch friction disks.

Ed

[Bullfrog]

PS: Sliding pin popping out of the control shaft spool is most commonly the result of the build up of wear issues in the shifter mechanism (foot change shaft bore wear, foot change shaft wear, "ratchet" bore wear, shimming of the bottom end of the shifter arm, bore wear at either (or both) of the holes in the shifter arm, sliding pin shaft or "key" wear, control shaft spool wear).

Replacing a single component may bring things back to proper operation for a while - but if other components are also excessively worn . . . troubles will return relatively quickly.
Ed

[viclioce]

NOTE: A maximum acceleration shift from 4th to 5th may be a good way to REVEAL that the clutch is slipping. Ed

4th or 5th gear?!?!? I can’t get it to stop slipping in 1st & 2nd!!! I put a new clutch kit in the lightened (and I’m told rare) Super Rat clutch I had in this bike. There was no compression of the clutch at all. It slipped horribly before putting the clutch kit in. But I began to suspect it was not the correct clutch kit for this lighter Super Rat clutch.

So, I grabbed a second clutch which I’m sure was a std. Ace 100 clutch pack. Installed it today. The clutch was a bit dirty, so I cleaned it before installing it on the bike. The clutch once again continued to slip.

I had originally set the free play to a carefully measured 3/32” prior to installing any clutch. I can’t believe both clutches were worn beyond use. The second clutch appeared to have plenty of plate material left in it. Especially when compared to the previous worn clutch.

So at this point I’m not sure what the issue is. I’m thinking I’ll pull both clutches apart and put the Ace 100 clutch kit into the Ace 100 clutch basket and try again.

As stated, I’ve never had a clutch for any of the bikes I’ve done, which really needed a new clutch kit to function. They were all low mileage motors, having less than 2500 miles max on each one. This one has about 4200 miles on the speedo, without going back out to the garage and double checking it. As I recall it has some but not really 100 miles over 4100 miles. Is that enough to be a worn out clutch? Or is it just free play issues? Thx! Victor

[Bullfrog]

OK. It is clearly slipping. You report having freeplay at clutch lever. Soooo . . . see item 2 in my first message. Since I know folks who can "use up" a clutch in a couple of races, it isn't hard at all to imagine that you may have two worn out clutches. (Never forget the concept of DPO syndrome - Dreaded Previous Owner(s) )
Ed

[ossa95d]

Before taking the clutch apart make sure that the handlebar lever and cable are allowing the case clutch actuating lever to return to its 3/32" free-play position with everything attached. Loosen the handlebar lever adjuster until there is plenty of free-play at the lever. Also ensure that the cable is routed in a way that allows it to slide easily. If the cable doesn't slide freely disconnect it and ride the bike with the clutch cable disconnected. You will have to roll it so you can shift into first but after that you should have no trouble shifting without the clutch lever attached.

[viclioce]

OK. It is clearly slipping. You report having freeplay at clutch lever. Soooo . . . see item 2 in my first message. Since I know folks who can "use up" a clutch in a couple of races, it isn't hard at all to imagine that you may have two worn out clutches. (Never forget the concept of DPO syndrome - Dreaded Previous Owner(s) )
Ed

I inspected the second clutch prior to installing it & I truly believe this clutch pack is not worn out. The problem is it operates like the cable is too loose when trying to shift from neutral to 1st gear with the motor running, but if I manage (very difficult) to get it rolling without stalling, then it slips while going down the road. Having either of these problems separately, I know how to adjust. But having BOTH problems together, I don’t know what to do? Adjusting for one issue seems counter intuitive and opposite for the other issue.

Right now, I can’t shift into 1st gear at all with the motor running. Have I already adjusted all the free play out? But with the motor not running, I can pull the clutch in fully while in first gear and I still have difficulty rolling the bike. The clutch doesn’t fully disengage. So, I’m confused.

I believe that if I tighten the cable enough to make the bike roll in 1st gear with the lever fully depressed, then I’m probably causing the clutch to slip more when rolling. If I don’t tighten the cable enough to roll when the motor isn’t running and the bike is in 1st gear, then I can start the bike in neutral, but attempting to shift into 1st gear with the clutch lever fully activated gives the same result as trying to shift from neutral to 1st gear. without using the clutch.

Captain, I’m going to read your second point again now....

I’m not sure where to go from here.... Victor

[Bullfrog]

The up-dated listing of symptoms, clutch slips AND drags - indicates there are no shortcuts to finding the problem.

You will have to closely examine each part in the clutch system to verify that it is "good" and working well. I'd start at the clutch lever on the handle bar and work thru all the way to the clutch pinion bushing.

Hand lever not floppy in perch. Cable end properly fitting in lever. Cable properly adjusted. Cable moves smoothly and properly lubed. Clutch lever at engine - does if fit sloppily in its bore (worn bore or lever shaft). Proper freeplay at engine clutch lever. Does the clutch disc (throw-out bearing) feel good? (not sloppy-worn out). Dissassemble clutch, check all components. Steel plates flat? (not warped) Dress sharp edges off the teeth of the steel plates. Friction disks not worn out. Clutch springs all match for length and meet specs in the Workshop Manual? Interior teeth of clutch cage not "wash-boardy" (repair or replace - see Resonator article). Condition of the clutch pinion bushing? Condition of the bore of the clutch pinion gear? Now reassemble per the Manual and go riding. (NOTE: I may have missed something - check EVERYTHING for proper fit and operation and assure yourself there are no missing parts and no extra parts.)
Ed

[viclioce]

OK, Ed. I will report back. Time to drain the oil for the third time this go around! Victor

[Bullfrog]

Um, you could lay the bike over on its side and not have to drain the oil. Up to you. (third time Huh?) Have I ever mentioned, "Slow down. You'll go faster."?
Ed

[Dale]

Victor, Don't try to get it to free roll with it in gear, clutch lever pulled in and engine not running. It is not normal for a Hodaka to free roll in this situation.
Dale

[JPark]

I had really annoying clutch drag which went away when I replaced the clutch pinion bushing. The 'gear' that holds all the friction plates rides on this bushing even when engaged and if it is flopping about it won't obey orders properly. The pinion is a lot harder than the bushing but you should still smooth the inside of the gear for the new bushing.

The outer clutch housing won't be floppy as it is riding on the end of the crank, but the fiber plates ride on the pinion, in my o'pinion.

[thirdstone]

I can tell the frustration here.
You have been given sound advice from everyone.
My 2 cents
If the clutch pack is correctly assembled and the thrust washers are fitted the only other thing to double check is the free play at the case lever. If there are too many disc washers the clutch can disengage when you screw the clutch cover on. No amount of handle bar lever free play will help you. Ed has suggested to check this aspect.
If the grooved bush has mushroomed the clutch will not disengage (the opposite) . It’s hard to tell as it doesn’t take much distortion to stop the clutch from working.
Have you tried to see the clutch movement in a vice ? A couple of well positioned sockets will let you see the clutch movement, it’s only a mm or so.

Good luck

[viclioce]

How doe one check clutch movement in a vice???!?!?!?!????

[viclioce]

I liked it better when I thought I was done with this Ace B........ Victor

[taber hodaka]

Victor how much torque do you have on the clutch nut? I think it could be more than a single problem. ---------- Clarence

[viclioce]

Clutch isn’t attached right now. But I use the torque setting in the manual. Victor

[viclioce]

Boy! Going through all the left over clutches I have leaves me finding that I have not one but two of the lighter weight Super Rat Clutches! Since I’m not building any Super Rats, is there anyone interested in these? I’ll let them go VERY reasonably! One still is completely assembled, the other has the clutch plates removed. These are the clutches which are narrower than the Ace 100 clutch and weigh less as well. I can provide pictures and the part number on them for clarification if interested. Victor

[viclioce]

So after reviewing parts on Terry’s home page and entering the clutch part number I have, I determined the clutch was correct.

I also had to use my vise to squeeze the clutch body down enough to turn the screws through enough to have the safety wire holes come through enough.

From now on, I will use my handy bench vise to squeeze the clutch together a bit so the screws come loose easier. Do other folks do this?

I put the clutch back together after cleaning the plate set which was in it, and doing the “blueprint” filing to the center ring. It does make the clutch operate more smoothly!!!

The one thing I still don’t understand is why do the OEM clutches have 4 metal clutch plates and 5 friction discs, while the newer clutch rebuild kits have only 3 metal clutch plates & 4 friction discs? Unless I’m missing a plate & friction disc?

[Dale]

I always use 3, 2inch C-Clamps for dis-assembly and assembly. It takes all the pressure off of the screws.

As for the number of plates and discs, it totally depends on the model of clutch you are working with. The thicker clutches found on the 03, 95, 97 and 98 models utilize 4 steel plates and 5 friction discs. Model 99 use 2 plates and 3 discs, the same as the smaller Ace 90 clutch. Model 92, 93 and 94 use 3 plates and 4 discs.

What model are you working with? Motor and clutch?
How long are your clutch screws? And how deep does your clutch cage measure?
Clutch screw length:
34mm models 90 through 94 and 96
37mm models 03, 95, 97, 98
31mm models 01, 02, 82, 99

[viclioce]

Clutch model I’m not 100% sure of. It has the number 934008 ISO. It has 5 friction discs & 4 steel plates. I cleaned the plates & discs and blueprinted the center ring and then put it together using he clutch tor gear to align the friction discs. I believe it also has the 34mm screws. I have one clutch which has 31mm screws. But the new steel plates & clutch discs seemed too thick for it. So I went with a different clutch. Terry tell me the one with the 31mm screws is a rare Super Rat lightweight clutch. I’m just trying to get this Ace B to work properly. Victor

[viclioce]

Clutch model I’m not 100% sure of. It has the number 934008 ISO. It has 5 friction discs & 4 steel plates. I cleaned the plates & discs and filed/blueprinted the center ring and then put it together using the clutch rotor gear to align the friction discs. I believe it also has the 34mm screws.

I have one clutch which has 31mm screws. But the new steel plates & clutch discs seemed too thick for it. So I went with a different clutch. Terry tells me the one with the 31mm screws is a rare Super Rat lightweight clutch. I’m just trying to get this Ace B clutch to work properly. Victor

[Dale]

Clutch model I’m not 100% sure of. It has the number 934008 ISO. It has 5 friction discs & 4 steel plates. I cleaned the plates & discs and blueprinted the center ring and then put it together using he clutch tor gear to align the friction discs. I believe it also has the 34mm screws. I have one clutch which has 31mm screws. But the new steel plates & clutch discs seemed too thick for it. So I went with a different clutch. Terry tell me the one with the 31mm screws is a rare Super Rat lightweight clutch. I’m just trying to get this Ace B to work properly. Victor

The 934008 ISO is the clutch cover. It will not define which clutch model you have as this cover is used on many models. What is important is the clutch cage and it's depth plus the screw lengths. If you have 34mm screws then that tells me you have a cage designed for 4 friction plates and 3 steel plates. If you have installed 5 discs and 4 plates, then it is not going to release.