5th gear issue

[Bullfrog]

Kev,

Yeah, the description of the "stop" was not particularly good. Actually, it was pretty bad - so here is a photo of the "stops" which provide a "limit" on the movement of the shifter arm which is integral with the foot change shaft whether up-shifting or down-shifting. If these "stops" are hammered out, then the shifter arm will "over-travel" (and so will the control shaft) - and that could easily lead to the problem you have experienced in 5th gear.

I'm guessing that Al is going to get back to us with what he found, but one of his posts strongly hinted that installing shims under the snap ring at the outer end of the foot change shaft (to limit end play of the foot change shaft) was the "magic bullet".

Finally, I want to look into this whole situation in a "wholistic" way because there are a myriad of related questions:
1. Since a quick look at a countershaft/control shaft assembly on the bench suggests that the spool of the control shaft normally travels to a point less than 1mm from the end of the countershaft . . . how the heck to did you even get into 5th with a spacer which prevented the control shaft from getting anywhere near that close to the end of the countershaft? (see photo below)

2. Did MTrat have to adjust the shifter after taking off the inner cover to get shifting right.
3. Why does the shifter cover from a Hodie with 1913 miles on the odometer show NO evidence of the shifter arm EVER contacting the inside dust cover?
4. What do the "stops" molded into the shifter cover (top photo) look like on high use shifter covers?

There is more to the story than simply replacing the inside dust cover to eliminate the problem being discussed. It is apparent that doing so worked for you - so it IS a simple, easy, quick "solution" -- except it isn't a true "solution" in that it fixed the symptom but not the underlying fault(s) which actually caused the symptom. (and, sooner or later, those underlying fault(s) are going to produce other symptoms)

Ed

[thirdstone]

Thinking about this way too much when on holidays but I think we are there.
The worn case stops will cause the ratchet to over travel and that is when the knuckle could fall out of the ratchet gear. The plunger pin ultimately locates the ratchet gear and thus the sliding position and that does not change with case stops wearing. It’s likely that the knuckle falls out due to over travel before the plunger pin is in place.

How did the washer stop the problem and still allow engagement? I have known idea.

[Bullfrog]

Have a burger with beetroot and pineapple with a One Fifty Lashes for me while you are on holiday, OK? (will be interested in seeing the condition of your shifter case stops after you get back home)

Ed

[MTrat]

Ed, my emergency, one time, removal of the inner cover did not alter the shifting for that race. The 1mm- thickness of the cover apparently wasn't too much. A smaller rear sprocket would have been preferred. Bruce

[Al Harpster]

Yes, the Magic Bullet for me was just as stated by Bullfrog:

I'm guessing that Al is going to get back to us with what he found, but one of his posts strongly hinted that installing shims under the snap ring at the outer end of the foot change shaft (to limit end play of the foot change shaft) was the "magic bullet".

[Bullfrog]

Thanks for the post Al. It provides us with some closure on the situation you faced and resolved. Sorry you had such an ordeal. Most "down for first" shifters work just fine when in good repair . . . without noticeable practical differences in shifting performance when compared the "up for first" models.
Ed

[JayLael]

I cannot help but join in on this discussion, as I too have suffered from this malady. I'm sure not all cases have the same root cause, but here's what happened to my model 95 Combat in about 2008.

Stuck in fifth gear while racing. Added o ring between motos, and it worked for the rest of the day. Not long after that, Ed came to visit, and we took it apart, and Ed analyzed the wear on the parts. Mind you that the shift shaft was re-bushed perfectly, and was set with no end play, and not loose in the case, when the problem occurred.

Ed found the culprit was the index gear was worn oblong where it rides on the shift shaft, and that in turn had also worn a step into the shift shaft where it rides. In my case the fix was to replace the shift shaft and the index gear, then re-assemble with all the same other parts. For those who are rebuilding shift cases, I recommend that you try the index gear on the shift shaft and really check it close for looseness. It doesn't take much to cause this problem. It was not obvious.

[Bullfrog]

Glad you reported the details on the issue you experienced with the fit of the ratchet on the foot change shaft. A buildup of "slop" from various wear locations will contribute to problems.
Ed

[thirdstone]

I think we can put this to bed although I’m pretty sure it’s of interest to just me and Ed.
I finally got access to my best shift case and can report that with the metal gasket removed ( for want of a better word ) the shift arm knuckle does not fall out of the ratchet when 5th is selected. It does have a bit of play.

[thrownchain]

Even though only a few people have responded, lots of people are reading the post. The info may come in handy in the future.

[Dale]

Even though only a few people have responded, lots of people are reading the post. The info may come in handy in the future.

Yup!

[ossa95d]

Definitely

[Bullfrog]

Yes, this thread may be helpful to others.

Kev, I don't think that last test was definitive. Removing the inner cover "moves" the whole shift cover inboard about 1mm - which significantly changes the geometry of the 5th gear shift. I think you'd need to put equivalent thickness washers on the mount screws (with the inner cover removed) to have a true test.

Ed

[givergas]

thirdstone im one of the" others" ed is talking about . the reason your thread and others is important is the more i read about a problem the more i understand the inner workings and reason behind it so when a problem comes up its much more understandable....albert

[givergas]

thirdstone im one of the" others" ed is talking about . the reason your thread and others is important is the more i read about a problem the more i understand the inner workings and reason behind it so when a problem comes up its much more understandable....albert

[thrownchain]

Don't space it, put the cover back on....

[Bullfrog]

Thrown, the comment about using spacers instead of the inner cover was ONLY for the purpose of testing the resting position of the shifter components with 5th gear selected, without any potential "limiting" of "throw/indexing" by the inner cover. Testing only.

Ed

[thirdstone]

Thrown, the comment about using spacers instead of the inner cover was ONLY for the purpose of testing the resting position of the shifter components with 5th gear selected, without any potential "limiting" of "throw/indexing" by the inner cover. Testing only.

Ed

Ed to be clear what I mean is that with the shifter removed and in hand and metal cover removed , shifting to the 5th gear position shows that the shift arm knuckle stays engaged with the ratchet gear. On the shift case I was using before , the knuckle would fall out. Remember the original question was “ does the cover act as a stop ?” I got caught out when I had a shift case with worn stops AND a metal gasket / cover that had a dent where the shift arm lined up. This made shifting out of 5 to 4th impossible because on that shifter case the knuckle fell out if the ratchet gear. Now by pure chance a non dented metal gasket/ cover stops the shift arm from over travelling and disengagement of the shift arm ,on the day a spring washer around the control rod stopped the rod moving too far in stopping the over travel —- phew !!!!

[Bullfrog]

DOH! I went back and read your post - which clearly described the "knuckle" (the sort of ball-end of the shifter arm assembly) staying registered in the slot on the backside of the ratchet gear. I utterly mistakenly pictured the sliding pin staying registered in the control shaft spool - not even close to what you said. I'm sorry for my error - and thanks for clearing up the situation. This has been a particularly informative thread!