Ace 90 Speedo gasket?

[TheBevman]

Hello All,
I finished rebuilding the Ace 90 Speedo that I have on my kids ‘68 Ace 100 and there was some kinda gasket that sealed it to the headlight shell. Anyone know what they used? I didn’t see anything on Terry’s parts schematics.

As you can see there was some kind a gasket there.

The speedo rebuild was pretty easy too, mostly just cleaning, removing corrosion and working the bits and pieces back to free them up. I did my M94’s first and then did this one

Speedo before.

Speedo after. We rebuilt the motor and probably have only covered 10 mi, the 5/10ths was just from testing with a drill.

Thanks,
Bev

[matt glascock]

Nice Bev! Is that the tool you used to pry off the bezel? Also, how did you get it back on and crimped down so smoothly. Good resonator stuff there.

[Bruce Young]

Hello Bev, I agree with Matt, please if it is possible, send more pictures of removal and replacement of bezel, that is the most important step. Speedo work stops most Hodaka owners, whom are having issues with locked up speedo or speedo cable. Its very possible one could start a little side business on rebuilding Hodaka Speedo,s if they can. I still want to ask all Hodaka world to consider first Terry Larson of Hodaka-parts INC in Missouri for parts and pieces, they have made a lot of "New" improvements to their site, take a long look, lot more info there than meets our expectations, and more coming. Now about the rubber under the bezel, I would to try and find a Speedo shop parts company/whom might have some sort of rubber part that would work, if you find something post it. Good job on the post and yes it would make a very good resonator project. Bruce Young Hodakapartsidaho.

[matt glascock]

If all else fails, you might need to answer the age-old question "why do I keep all these old inner tubes" with a pair of scissors. Trace the outline of the mating surface on one of them and cut your own gasket. If the inner tube rubber is too thick, you could probably cut one out of a rubber glove or some other thin rubber material.

[Bruce Young]

Matt, good suggestion, but a Large "O" ring of similar size might work just as well and you can get those in round as well square configuration if nec., but it would be nice to find a true speedo bezel gasket from anything that would fit perfect, its not a big problem but its one of those that has been around the vintage motorcycle world for many years and we in the Hodaka group might as well take the bull by the horns and find some speedo parts and company,s whom would work on our speedo,s when nec., there must be someone out there that has a lot of knowledge on Hodaka speedo repairs and etc., Bruce

[Bert44]

I have used O rings in the past but they have a use by date. They break up as if they’re affected by UV light after about 3 years. Easy enough to replace if they are used between the headlight shell and speedo but if they are used to seal the bezel, a bead of silicon may be a better option.

[TheBevman]

I’m about ready to head out on a weekend fishing trip so I’ll have to update you on the rebuild later.
I did take a few pictures so at the very least I can show you what’s inside and what you can expect.

I did a bit of research before I started the undertaking. Surprisingly there’s not too much info available, which made me hesitant but I didn’t have too much to lose. Neither gauge work so I didn’t have too much to lose, I don’t have the money to have them professionally done so I figured I could try and at least educate myself.

First you have to compress the gauge face down. The idea is to compress the bezel and what ever is between it and the housing, I think it may have (at some point in time) been rubber but now had turned too hard and broke apart in chunks. Once compressed you do get just enough room to get under the bezel.

I’ll have to re-inact my set-up later to take some photos. It’s crude but worked.

As far as tools used to remove the bezel first I used, of all things, a paint can opener with the the hook ground more to an edge to get under the bezel’s lip.

The tape is to protect the paint on the speedo housing.

You’ll need a fine edge to get under the lip

Other than that I used a small, flat blade screwdriver with a fine tip as well and eventually a larger flat blade screwdriver. The idea is to use the opener to start peeling the bezel’s lip up, bit by bit, as you go around. The you can use the screwdriver to lift the lip up a bit more too. I alternated using each tool as I saw fit. Until I could lift the housing free of the bezel, glass and the inner beauty ring.

The only problem I did have was that I noticed I could stretch the bezel, increasing its diameter. I had to hammer it back in spots.

More to come upon my return, hopefully, I’ll have some good fish stories and photos to go with it.

Bev

[matt glascock]

Excellent Bev. I like Bruce's suggestion of sourcing legit bezel gaskets but the silicone suggestion of Bert's would make a great substitute. I have about a half dozen speedos in various stages of disrepair - broken glass, indicator needle off the spindle, and the like. I thought to dig into the worst of them as a test case, but you're doing such a great job leading the way on this one I'm going to wait for the further details. Thanks Bev.

[bobwhitman]

Bev
Yes, please do up a piece on this for the Resonator! As Matt noted, many of us have “impaired“ speedos, be nice to know how to repair them. I’ll be soliciting articles for the next Res before long, and would love to have your tale, along with whatever pix you can include.
Bob Whitman 541-954-0101
[email protected]

[TheBevman]

Fishing wasn’t as good as expected but creek fishing is more about getting away and listening to nature’s music rather than filling the freezer. Anyway...

Bob, I think I can get something together for the Resonator.

Here’s how I clamped my gauge down. Old pink towel rag and some ratcheting clamps. I clamped it tight enough so it wouldn’t move and the towel helped give it a bit cushion.

Clamped look from above

Clamped. from the side

I found that I had to move the gauge a few times and reclamp it as I worked my way around the lip of the bezel because the clamps got in the way.

Here’s a look at how I used the paint can opener

If all goes to plan, then you should end up with this... remember to be patient and take your time working the bezel’s lip up a bit at a time.

Once your to that point you’ll meet to remove the gauge’s needle. You’ll need a business card or something similar, I used the packaging from a pack of fuses. Cut a “v” into it so that it can be slipped under the needle, it will protect the gauges face.

Not a Hodie gauge... but it gets the point across.

Now you can use 2 spoons to Prise the needle free. 1 on each side, dish up,180 deg apart, and under as far as you can get them. Be patient here too, slow and steady pressure pays off.

I read that with other gauges there’s a concern with marking the needles position. I don’t believe you’ll need to do that with a Hodaka’s there’s a rest that stops the needle’s travel.

Once the needle is off you can remove the 2 face screws and the 2 from the back that hold the gauge’s mechanism inside the cup and look at its mystical mechanical innards.
Too be continued....

[matt glascock]

Ooh...this is getting good! Thanks Bev!

[Bruce Young]

Hello, Bevman, fantastic photo,s and info on how to work on a Hodaka speed o. I look forward to the final round of photo,s and progress on the rebuilding or at least cleaning of a speed o. Please in you final post, give a idea of how long the whole rebuild took in time. This info is extremely valuable, to the Hodaka World. Thank You, Thank You. PS if you need more old speed o to use for parts and etc please give me an e-mail. [email protected] at no charge to you. You and I need to talk. Bruce Young 1--208--571--2823

[TheBevman]

Bruce, I took my time and didn’t rush it, unknown territory and such. All in all it took me about 6-7 hours over a week or so to do my Wombat’s Speedo (the tripmeter also task a bit too) and 3-4 for my 90. Both required a near complete tear down. The only thing I didn’t mess with was the spring, simply because that is the only point of adjustment or “calibration” in the whole gauge... and if it ain’t broke, I ain’t gonna break it because I don’t want to fix it. Also, I might take you up on your offer. Thanks.

Also, I only too pictures to help with reassembled so I’m just going to do the best I can with the photos I have. So before we get too involved here’s the meat and potatoes of how it all works
(in principal and using no technical terms.)

To drive the odometer. The speedo drive has a worm gear on it, under the cup, that drives a horizontal shaft, which intern drives a vertical shaft; that drives a spur gear (mounted on the right, inner wall of the frame), that drives the odometer’s wheel’s gear.

Here you can see the drive and the shafts.

To drive the needle. The drive has a cup, opening up, and the needle is attached to a cup, opening down, which fits in the drive cup. The two don’t actually touch, so there’s no direct drive from the cable to the needle.

Here you can see the cups and the shaft that the needle attaches to.

As far as I can tell the two cups are bewitched and the magic is what transfers the drive from the bottom (drive) cup to the top (needle) cup.

Actually, there’s a magnet in the bottom cup and as it spins the magnetic field it generates spins the top cup (and needle) while a light wound spring provides both counter clockwise resistance and pressure to hold the top cup (and attached needle) to the stop while not in use.

There’s the magnet.

Once the gauge’s innards are out of the cup now’s a good time to assess where the failing may be. As you can see my 90 gauge was crusty and it only had a frozen shaft, my Wombat’s gauge, however, had sand and abrasive bits throughout to wreak havoc and grind away material. Time spent looking for your problem now pays dividends later.

Yep, all that crud and only that end of the shaft was frozen. 10 min with some 3 in 1 oil and some back and forth work and it was functioning again. You can also see the worm gear under the bottom cup quite well.

So grab a small 1/4” ish flat blade screw driver, plug it in where the cable goes in and slowly spin in a counter clockwise motion, the same direction the guage’s needle would turn. You’re feeling for resistance and to make sure there’s no binding in the drive, shafts and gears. There’s quite a reduction before the motion gets to the odometer so slowly and carefully spin, spin away... chances are you’ll find a culprit well before you have any effect on the odometer.

More to come...

[matt glascock]

Man! Great report, Bev!!

[TheBevman]

Removing the odometer wheel assembly is relatively easy.

Pull the 2 brass spring clips( there’s two in there), there’s a brass washer and a brass, shouldered bush, with the shoulder on the inboard side. Once the bush is free, slide toward the wheels. This will give you enough room and play to move the wheel’s shaft through the hole that had the bush and remove the whole odometer assembly.

Here’s the bush from the frame side and as you can see that was another one of my problems... To which I came up with some rather creative solutions. But more on that later.

Here’s what it it looks like

I’ll go into that assembly a bit later.

If you need to disassemble it further to repair or clean it you’ll need to take off the top plate. The frame is peened over it in 4 places, as seen in the photo.

Not a good photo but shows the points I’m talking about

Much better... and soooo crusty. You can see the spring clips at the bottom end of the shaft. If memory serves the order is bush, clip, washer and the final clip.

I found luck putting the frame in a vice (be careful of the cups as they poke out a bit) and forcing the peened bits back with a flat chisel and careful hammering... and when that didn’t work I used a Dremel with cut off wheel. Either way, as long as you don’t over due it you can re-peen those points of the frame. The top plate is a tight fit so you may still need to use some careful force to get it off.

***Warning:***
If you remove the top plate I highly recommend that you do so carefully and keep the top cup/ needle shaft and attached spring etc... all together. That spring is very light and delicate and as stated is the only adjustment so don’t stress or stretch it. When I wasn’t cleaning the top plate/ top cup assembly I stored it upside down on a socket to keep it from harm.

Also you won’t need to mess with the brass nut or bushing in the center of the top plate, I didn’t. It’s set to be just below the height of the face of the gauge and it wasn’t broke.

Once apart you can remove the vertical shaft and free up the spur gear.

Now with everything apart I used a few different things to clean bits up: vinegar, spray electrical cleaner (QD spray), rubbing alcohol, wire brush, old tooth brush, dawn dish soap, hot water and q-tips. The vinegar I used very sparingly on the top plate assembly because of that delicate spring. I didn’t let any parts soak for more than a min or two without scrubbing with the brushes. Years ago I left a set of points in vinegar and it ate the spring in 3 hrs. Since then I’m a bit leery.

Once all the rust has been busted and all the bits are cleaned make sure that everything can move freely, particularly the main drive, the spur gear and both shafts (as stated we’ll get to the odo shaft in a bit.) Reassembly of the above is rather easy and straight forward just take your time and take more and better pictures, for future reference, as you go. In peening those 4 points to hold the top plate on, I found luck with an automatic center punch, strategically placed of course.

Here’s something to keep in mind too. This was before I disassembled it.

Here’s after reassembly, I put a turn of tension in the spring. If you forget and the cup’s tab doesn’t reach the stop. You can carefully bend the stop out of the way and put a turn or two in. Beware this may alter you calibration. I accepted that and haven’t yet seen what the affect in accuracy will be.

Also in the above photo you can see that there’s a wedge that keeps the edge of the spring... well it fell out and in putting it back in I kinda over did it a bit as seen by the tang poking out behind it. In pushing the wedge in you make a flat point in the spring, a weakened point, so if you do make the same mistake be very careful in reinstalling the wedge through its hole and it’s location on the spring.

One thing of note. In my research I found many people mention the that there was no need to lubricate anything. Their idea being that lubricant can attract dirt. I use 3-in-1 oil but used a toothpick to dip and apply it in very small amounts to the ends of the shafts, the needle (it has a small cup just under the top plate and that bush w/ the nut), the spur gear and other spots I deemed fit.

.... and yet still more to come...

[givergas]

good stuff. i have a speedo thats not working this will really help thanks for the time you put in ...albert

[Bert44]

Thanks Bevman. This is a fantastic post. I’ve always wondered how a speedo works. Now I’ll go and pull down my broken Honda speedo as a test of my new found knowledge.
Give yourself an elephant stamp.

Bert.

[rlkarren]

Here’s a previous post that addressed inoperable Speedo’s That includes a link with more photos that will help comprehension.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2249&p=16316&hilit=Speedo#p16316

[TheBevman]

GiverGas and Bert, I think I make it a bit more complicated than it really was but give it a go. If I can do it than anyone with caution, patience and the mechanical comprehension can do it.

RlKarren, I came across that post when I was researching the endeavor but the pictures never came through. It's probably something with my computer. Thanks for adding it thought, the more the merrier... it's all toward the same goal.

I'll try to get the odometer wheel assembly portion completed tonight. Sorry for the delay, unfortunately, life intervenes with the best of plans

Thanks,
Bev

[TheBevman]

The odometer assembly:

By far the most tedious part of this endeavor for me, but once I found out my problem it was very easy... but we’ll get to that.

The assembly comes apart relatively easy

That copper clip holds it all together.

Note the two teeth on that side of the wheel and the internal lip. All the wheels are the same, even the white wheel, except in color obviously.

As you can see in the below photo between each wheel there’s a thin metal divider, on each is a small brass or plastic gear mounted on a pin.

Once the clips off, everything just slides off the shaft.

Here you can see the brass drive gear at the end will simply slide off the opposite end. It engages into the recess of the white wheel

Here’s a better look at the divider, and the small gear. As you can see I uncovered another problem.

Here’s the whole assembly laid out. The clip I left on the shaft was under the brass gear and didn’t need to be removed.

How I think it all works (minus the magic):
As you can see above, the wheels have teeth around the internal perimeter on their right side and only 2 strategically placed teeth on their left, as noted earlier. This is how the wheels are geared together. Though my photos show the assembly up side down. Remember this whole assembly is driven from the right and so each wheel drives the one to its left. As a wheel completes a revolution and gets to the number 9, the 2 teeth on the left side of the right wheel (with me so far...) engage the small gear on the divider to turn the wheel to the left by its fully geared right side and so it goes down the line. In hindsight, its simply a gear reduction assembly with numbered wheels.

Cleaning:
I used dawn dish soap, warm water and an old toothbrush to clean and dried everything hastily with compressed air. I only oiled the divider’s pins before putting the small gears on, the toothpick trick mentioned earlier. Ensure all wheels rotate freely on the shaft and gears rotate freely on their pins.

Reassembly:
For the most part everything is straight forward. White wheel, divider with gear and pin facing toward the white wheel (right hand side) and follow that pattern: wheel, divider, wheel, etc...but be aware. Here’s the problem I encountered and it took me some time to realize it. The small gears on the divider pins. If your sharp you may have caught the the gears have 3 half width and 3 full width teeth, 6 in total.

Closer look at that small gear positioned correctly for reassembly.

The half width teeth ride on the internal lip on the left side of the wheel. If the gears aren’t positioned correctly you’ll have wider spaces between the wheels and the recess for the clip won’t be visible, when everything’s assembled. Though it’s a snug fit when everything is assembled properly.
***if you want the wheels to display a specific mileage it’ll take some trial and error and must be done before installing the final clip on the shaft. Be cognizant of the small gear’s tooth position and you must keep the dividers in line. It took me about 30 min just to get that part hammered out.

My dividers out of line after installation.

Installation:
Same as the removal. With the shaft fully assembled put the small brass washer and shouldered bushing on the end of the shaft, opposite of the brass drive gear. Put that end through the mounting hole of the gauge’s frame and slide the brass gear end into its mounting hole in the opposite side of the frame and engage it with the spur gear. Then simply install the two brass clips that hold the shafts bushing in.

After that grab that small screw driver and test your handy work, spin, spin away. Check for binding and such. Once your convinced your operating smoothly then try using a drill- slowly- check.
When ready install the face and it’s 2 screws.

The needle: alight it with the zero on the face and give it a tap to seat it squarely, I used the handle of a plastic screw driver.

More than just a pretty face

Place the gauge back in the cup and secure to with the two screws.

If all is still going well and your ready to put the gauge together

Make sure the glass, beauty ring and bezel are clean, it’s time for assembly. I cut gasket, from some thin gasket material, to fit between the cup and the beauty ring. When I disassembled my gauge there was a thick black seal that disintegrated, to replace that I loaded up the inside of the bezel with black RTV. Then put the clean glass down, the beauty ring (the bevel goes toward the gauge face) then the gasket I made (used a small amount of black RTV to help keep the elements out). Finally, fit the gauge and cup into the bezel so you can crimp it all together.

Clamp the gauge, face down as before and with a long punch, 3/8” rod or other suitable tool start to slowly work the edge or the bezel down. When you get it snug check the gauge’s glass to ensure it’s centered. I think originally the thick gasket served that purpose. When your sure it’s all set, clamp it down again and finish crimping the bezel down tightly. Finally, clean off all the excess RTV and let it all dry.

And it’s all, just that simple.

Since it’s taken 3 hrs to get all that into a somewhat coherent format, I’ll save my “solutions” for another post here.

Bev

[givergas]

bev that was a thing of beauty right there ....great info...albert

[viclioce]

Bev. Great job documenting this. It’s a keeper for the Resonator for sure! Great photos, clear, concise explanations, anyone should be able to follow! Applause!!! Victor

[thrownchain]

Anyone given this a try? Results you can share?

[Bert44]

I tried it on a Honda cub speedo. Exactly the same mechanism inside. The only part I had a short problem with is removing the top plate which is held in place by peeling. I tried to lever it off but tapping back the peeled bits with a chisel would have been better. Very simple otherwise, just watch you don’t stretch the spring.

[TheBevman]

Bert, glad to hear you were successful. I was surprised how straight forward it was when I gave it a try. I found that grinding the better part of the peening off those 4 points with a Dremel tool made it much easier. My only concern was the grit it would leave behind but since I was cleaning everything up anyway I didn't sweat it too much. I had tried using a chisel but didn't feel like I could support frame well enough while doing it.

Bev