5th gear issue

[thirdstone]

Recent track day with my 94/97 bike put together with spare parts I experienced a problem with 5th gear. The issue was I couldn’t change down from 5th. All the other gear selections were perfect. After a lot of unsuccessful adjustments I noticed that the control rod arm was going in too far . Now knowing the problem but not the cause I came up with a fix for the day. A spring washerbehind the spool. This stopped the control rod from going in too far. Going in too far causes the knuckle to fall out of the ratchet gear.

[thirdstone]

I spent the ready of the weekend with good shifting. When I got home I put the shifter case on my cut out cases to view what was going on. I found out that the metal shift case gasket had a dent right where the spool arm contacted . This was the cause of the over travel. Who would have thought that the metal gasket was also used as a stop. That’s what you get for using all the left over parts I guess.

[Bullfrog]

The metal gasket does not normally serve as a stop. I suspect that an examination of your shift cover will reveal that the molded in bosses which serve as the stops for the shifter arm (which is welded to the inner end of the foot change shaft) - are "hammered out". Excessive wear on the stops will allow over-rotation of the shifter arm . . . and result in over travel of the ratchet . . . which results in over-travel of the sliding key . . . which could result in the sliding key popping out of the spool.

NOTE: I further suspect that accumulation of excessive play due to wear to other shifter parts is also an issue, as the excessive play is probably a necessary factor in the very last part of the previous run-on sentence. i.e. without excessive play, I don't think the sliding key can pop out of the spool.

Ed
PS: Nice track side save!!!

[matt glascock]

No kidding Captain. I would have thrown in the towel after a few attempts and called it a day. Slick move, Third. I'm putting that arrow in my quiver for sure.

[thirdstone]

Ed I’ll have a look at those bosses.
The shifter mechanisms are fine . The shifting with that case , once the metal gasket was replaced is fine. It was shifting great in all the other gears. Thanks for the help

[thirdstone]

Ed I’ve looked at the bosses on the cases that are involved with the claw on the ratchet positioning . 1 is not in great shape but has sufficient material left to position the claw so that the spring loaded pin locks the ratchet in place. When in 5th gear ( any gear ) the gear lever goes to home position and the claw is centred so the Bosses at that point have no input. Are there other Bosses? I can only imagine one limiting the arc of travel of the spool arm that would be effective.

Anyway look at the video and please tell me if that is normal or not. 5th gear selected

Cheers

https://youtu.be/jatL8axl7hg

[taber hodaka]

Not not not normal. ---------Clarence?

[Bullfrog]

Very, very NOT normal.

The little ball end on the shifter arm assembly which registers into the slot on the back-side of the ratchet should "link" movement of the shifter arm (the item you grabbed and moved) with movement of the ratchet. The shifter arm moves through quite an arc in your video and there is no hint of a "connection" to the ratchet. Something is very, very wrong.

Ed

[Al Harpster]

You may already have this diagram, but this is what it's supposed to be like.

There's a little play in this set up, but what the video shows is a substantial defect.

The little round like ball feature should be well captured by the notch it fits in.

If you take this apart and compare the parts to the diagram it may shine some light on source of the problem.

[viclioce]

Wow. All that movement??? That’s not a good thing. Sounds like it needs replacement parts, or an entire shifter assembly. Victor

[thirdstone]

I’ve taken the shifter case apart and inspected it . I can’t see anything wrong with the parts . I’d have to say that movement is normal seeing as no wear and shifting fine with metal gasket fitted. Someone might be able to verify on their own Wombat case with out metal gasket fitted ?

[taber hodaka]

I would call this lucky and I would use it until it became unlucky. I would say the unit has slop beyond slop. I would guess the unit is loose in all directions. It is not normal, I will measure one of my new cases and respond. ------------- Clarence

[taber hodaka]

I measure mine, a used one at about 1/32 of free play. -------------- Clarence

[thirdstone]

Thanks Clarance is that with the metal gasket removed and 5th gear selected ?

[Al Harpster]

I encountered the same problem.

I found that IF the Foot Change Shaft Washer(s), part 33 on the exploded view linked here http://hodaka-parts.com/94_A.asp, was not thick enough or there weren't enough of them the shift shaft moved in and out too much.

That allowed the Ratchet to slop back & forth on the Shift shaft so that it lost proper contact with the "ball" shown on this link: http://hodaka-parts.com/sub-category.as ... 7&cID=1954.

But this problem only shows up when in 5th gear position when the reach is most extreme.

It lets the shifter arm to slop back and forth all over the place in 5th and the "ball" part wont stay in the ratchet properly.

Once I finally used spacers to properly eliminate Shift Shaft end play (there's a spec for it somewhere) the Ratchet and the "ball" remained properly aligned in the 5th gear position.

And all that Shifter Arm slop in 5th gear position was eliminated.

If you have this problem it acts like this:

Shifts 1 thru 5, but won't go back to 4th. If you never go to 5th, 1 thru 4 shift up and down just fine.

How many hours do I have in this trouble shooting? Don't ask.

[thirdstone]

Hi Al thanks for that info. There are so many things that wear after 40 years or so. Good to hear you fixed your shifting. In my case there was no slop just a dent in the metal gasket where the arm aligns in 5th. A new gasket fixed my issue. The fact that nobody believed me was a bit bizarre but who cares .
That bulletin is good reading .

Kev

[Al Harpster]

Good point you bring up here..... I missed it.

IF the shift arm's movement in fifth gear position can be limited so the Ball doesn't wander too far outside its home slot you can shift back to forth.

Once it goes past the "point of no return" you're stuck in fifth. There's not enough leverage in that extreme position to snap it back.

That's why your spring washer wrapped around the shift shaft helped. It kept the shift arm from going outside it's "point of no return".

Man, did I spend a ton of hours (and a piece of money) chasing that one.

[thirdstone]

Exactly !!

The washer was a band aid solution only.

Kev

[Bullfrog]

Kev,

Speaking for myself, there was no disbelief that you experienced a problem. In addition, there was no disbelief that installing a new dust cover (the stamped steel inner shifter cover) was an aid/solution to the problem. Having said that, I do believe that you are in error in believing that the inner dust cover was always intended to serve as a travel limiter for the shifting mechanism. In addition I admit that I still have concerns regarding just how much free-play there is in your shifter mechanism as shown in the video. Many of us are of the opinion that the free-play shown was excessive . . . and that excessive free-play is most likely the root of the problem. In fact, when I re-read Al's review of his ordeal to fix the same symptom (shift into 5th and can't shift back to 4th) - he apparently cured the problem by re-building, re-shimming to eliminate excessive free-play . . . and it worked!

Finally, I readily admit that my own history involves checking free-play in the mechanism ONLY in the 1st gear, 2nd gear or 3rd gear range of motion. There had never been a good reason to check it out in 4th and 5th gears . . . till now. It is my plan to do some checking on the amount of free-play evident with a known "good" (properly shifting) shifter case sometime between now and spring (um, in the northern hemisphere ). When I get that little research project done, I'll report here or in "The Resonator Revisited" (the Hodaka Club newsletter).
Ed

[Al Harpster]

I stumbled into this problem in my almost never ending quest to switch my Ace to One Down Four Up.

I found that the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions.

After sourcing good used parts from across the 48 contiguous states I wound up with an insurmountable failure of shifting from 5 to 4.

I finally convinced myself that there was too much 'slop' between the shift shaft and the aluminum hole in the shift case. Clearly that was the problem.

Only after buying a new boring head for my mill and custom turning a bronze press in bushing did I find my diagnosis dead wrong.

Photos supplied.

In my quest for One Down Four Up I became intimately knowledgeable in this assembly.

[Bullfrog]

Al,

Referencing your previous post: OK . . . and . . . ??????

Ed

[thrownchain]

Don't leave us between gears, what did you find out?????

[thirdstone]

G’day Ed
The search for the mysterious stop was unsuccessful on my shifter case . Now I only have two cases and they are old and history unknown. Had they changed over years , something fallen out ? I can’t say but I don’t think so. A dent free metal gasket restored my shifting to perfect. As you point out , Al fixed his shifting by adjustment BUT he also didn’t have a damaged metal gasket . As we all know there are many possible causes of bad shifting, all we know is that when everything is like new they shift well. To test my observation all someone has to do is grab a known good shifting case off a 94-97 style transmission and remove the metal gasket (for want of a better word) and see if the knuckle falls out of the ratchet gear when in 5th, preventing the selection of 4th

Of little importance but you might find interesting, I did create a stop on one of my cases that prevents the knuckle dropping out with the metal gasket removed. I was just curious that’s all.

Cheers

Kev

[MTrat]

I once rode a flat track race without the plate in place as conditions required using a 17 tooth sprocket and clearance was the issue. Shifting was not a problem.

[Al Harpster]

I found that the fifth gear position in the One Down Four Up mechanism is precarious.

In fifth the ball shaped part is just barely contained within it's corresponding slot in the ratchet.

If the ratchet can slide just a bit away from the ball then the correct contact is lost & the shift arm is left to "sway in the wind".

At this point proper "grip" between Ball & Slot is lost and there is insufficient leverage to pull it back against the force of the spring loaded V shaped indexing pin. It tries, but just can't get back to fourth

I made a .020 thick shim washer for item 33 in the exploded view (referenced way above) and that kept the ratchet from sliding down the shift shaft & away from the ball. Eliminated end play.

One can also add a shim on the pivot pin to help crowd the ball feature closer to the ratchet. This is sort of referenced in the Tech Bulletin I linked to in above post. But I quit while I was ahead.

All the used shifter parts I had were in very nice tip-top condition. I had plenty on hand to choose from. No junk/worn out parts were used.

So that's my story.

I almost wish I'd stayed with the One Up For Down.

But, in search of a challenge I couldn't resist.