No Spark!

[KitV]

After completing some top-end work on my Wombat, I decided to rewire the stator plate since I was less than satisfied with the wire routing & soldering onto the condenser. In the process I installed a new condenser. Upon completion, I discovered that there was no spark to the spark plug. I rechecked the points gap. It was fine. I also checked the 2-wire connector from the spark plug coil to the stator plate. All appeared fine.

Since the no-spark issue did not exist prior to my "cleaning up" the wiring on the stator plate, I assumed that I might have erred in rewiring the stator plate or possibly fried the condenser.. So I rechecked the wiring & added both a new set of points & condenser. As a side note, I must admit that I have had difficulty cleanly soldering the 4 wires onto the top of the condenser. So rather than using my old 40W soldering pencil, I used a 140W soldering gun. This allowed me to solder the wires more quickly, thus exposing the condenser to less heat. So, I assume that the condenser was not subsequently fried.

Now I decided to lean on the collective wisdom of this forum rather than fumble my way through this & unnecessarily start replacing perfectly good parts. But in the back of my mind I still cannot help thinking that this issue is a result of some blunder on my part & is embarrassingly simple to rectify. But I can suck up my pride.

Here are a few facts:

1. I soldered 4 wires to the top of the condenser: the wire from the points, the wire from the exciter coil & the 2 black wires from the spark plug coil & lighting coils.
2. None of these wires appear to be broken nor damaged. However, I didn’t verify continuity.
3. I did notice that there is continuity between the black & blue wires coming from the spark plug coil.
4. I verified that the "U" terminal on the points wire was properly located so as not to be grounded.

At this point, I am at your mercy. Any suggestions that you might offer would be very appreciated. Thank you!

Kit

[givergas]

you take pretty good pictures how about one of the new stator plate wiring you did ?

[KitV]

Don't know if this photo might suggest a clue to the "no spark" issue. Thanks.

[matt glascock]

I can't tell for certain because of the perspective, but if the solder over run along the right margin of the top of the condenser in the photo is making contact with the shell of the condenser, you are back to a short to ground situation. This is a somewhat tricky soldering situation requiring a craftsman's approach. Here are a few things that have made matters easier for me. In no specific order: 1) remove stator plate and prop it up so it sits in an horizontal position for the soldering work. This avoids gravity influencing molten solder in an unsatisfactory direction. 2) twist all four wires together and tin them together as a bundle so you can perform the soldering of them to the condenser as a unit. Then trim the end so the exposed wires are all the same length and function as a single unit. 3) On top of the condenser, there are two metal retention tabs. Use the "far" tab to hold the tinned bare ends and solder the wires to the center post and far tab. Trim/file off any excess exposed wire and solder over run. Any solder or wire contact with the condenser shell results in a short to ground. Then use the "near" tab to secure the insulated portion of the wires. As opposed to your example, all four of my wires enter the solder joint from the same direction. My brother coats the entire soldered unit generously with liquid electrical tape as an added measure of security. I'm not sure about that one, but he, for some funky reason, likes to take his bike through a lot of deep water crossings so he feels it helps keep the solder joint more stable and electrically isolated. I wonder about heat retention and resultant condenser malfunction but it doesn't seem to effect his ignition in the negative.

[Dale]

You stated that you had soldered 4 leads to the condenser, including 2 black leads. One from the spark plug coil and one from the lighting coils. There should not be any connection between the lighting coils and the black wire. The black wire is the ignition wire and should go to two places, the spark plug coil and the ignition switch. The ignition switch grounds out this circuit when the key is "off". You will need to confirm that this is the case.

With that said, you do have the key turned on when looking for spark correct? It is best to disconnect the ignition switch until you find your spark. Just unplug the connector.

An easy way to test for spark is to make yourself a 3 vdc test battery source (by connecting two D cell batteries together in series) with test leads off of the positive and negative ends. 2 batteries, some wire soldered in place and then some duct tape. Easy. Connect the negative wire from the test battery to the stator plate.

Then with the magneto off, place a insulating piece of paper between the point contacts. Remove the spark plug cap and place a new spark plug in it and ground the plug to the cylinder. Now strike the positive lead of the 3 vdc battery to the leads at the condenser. You should get a spark at the plug for each strike of the wire. Repeat the test at the points connection to confirm the continuity of the wire between the condenser and the points.

If you are getting spark, then either the points themselves are bad or the exciter coil is not producing any current when the magneto spins.

If you are not getting spark, then move up to strike the black wire at the input to the spark plug coil. If still no spark, then there is a problem with the coil, the high tension wire, plug cap or plug.

Hope this helps.

[KitV]

Matt & ddvorak: Good advice. As soon as I get a chance to get back into the garage tomorrow, I will follow up on your suggestions & report back. Thank you for taking the time to walk me through this. Admittedly, electrical issues are my "Achilles Heel" when it comes to troubleshooting.

Kit

[Bullfrog]

I too think the photo shows solder contacting the shell of the condenser. If so, that is a totally effective spark killer.

I am concerned that the wire routing may (repeat MAY) extend up from the coil end plates far enough that the spinning flywheel may hit and damage the wires. As soon as I finish this message, I'll scan a couple of photos from the Official Workshop Manual and post 'em here. (Why didn't I think of that before??)
Ed

[Bullfrog]

Here are two photos from page 48 of the Official Hodaka Workshop Manual for the Wombat and Combat Wombat. They should be helpful in describing what the wiring connection at the condenser should look like.

Ed

[Bullfrog]

Here is the scan of page 67 from the Workshop Manual. It provides details regarding which wires go where.
Ed

[KitV]

Thanks, Ed, for the info. The routing of the wires does not interfere with the spinning of the flywheel. Today I will see whether the glob of solder oozed onto the shell of the condenser.

[Bullfrog]

I fear there is still a problem with the wire routing. Sure looks like one of the black wires will rub the cam . . . or vibrate and rub the cam. In addition all the wires are showing relatively long, un-supported lengths traversing across open space - they will vibrate and self destruct. I'll look for some photos to illustrate "factory" routing. Note that even with "factory" routing, vibration failure of the blue points wire is a known issue (see recent issue of the Resonator Revisited).
Ed

[KitV]

Point (no pun intended) well-taken. As a result of a couple of wires being too short prior to installing the new condenser, I lengthened them. However, I was a bit overcompensating on the length. If it turns out that some of the solder is indeed touching the shell of the condenser, I will re-solder. And, while I am at it, I will trim the length of the wires where needed. Also, as suggested by Matt, I will route the wires so that the end are pointing in the same direction. Ya know...all of this falls in the category of Common Sense. Looks like I need to be a bit more mindful rather than hurrying the job. Thanks for wake-up call.

[matt glascock]

You shouldn't be hard on yourself RE: common sense, KitV. Many of the tried and true techniques for working on these bikes are not necessarily completely intuitive. It all boils down to experience and for that, you are in exactly the right place to receive it from real, true experts on these machines - many of whom have been involved with Hodaka motorcycles from their inception to today.

[viclioce]

I never knew about not getting solder on the shell of the condenser until I joined this forum. But I had been away from 2 stroke motors for almost 40 years! So don’t be hard on yourself. Victor

[KitV]

I'm not really being hard on myself. Logically it just makes a lot of sense to me. I find that sometimes I'm daydreaming about cocktail hour rather than dealing with the job at hand.

[KitV]

Well, removal of the stator plate indicated solder touching the condenser shell. It appears that I found the no-spark culprit thanks to you guys. Rather than trying to unsolder the wires, I opted to simply order a new condenser. This way I can reroute the wires (again) & follow your suggestions on soldering. Will report when completed. Many thanks!!

Kit

[matt glascock]

Situation in hand. Excellent. Now is the time for that cocktail!

[viclioce]

If you haven’t “tinned” wires before, here’s what you do!

Heat the iron to be ready. Then place thexwire end to be soldered, by itself, against the iron. I usually put the iron tip under the copper of the wire and heat the copper. I will touch the solder from time to time until I see it start to melt.

The idea is to get the braided wire hot enough that the solder melts on contact and melts down into the braiding, the same way you solder 2 pieces of copper plumbing. This will coat the entire wire rather than being what folks call a cold solder.

A cold solder is solder which just sticks to the outside of the wire. You don’t want that.

Tin all your wire ends and then hold the ends together! Heat them again with the iron and add a bit more new solder so the new solder melts first because the already tinned solder will take a sufhtly higher temp to melt. The new solder will join all the wires together! Victor

[KitV]

Victor: That is exactly the technique that I use for tinning. But I appreciate you taking the time to outline the process. Since I seldom do any soldering, I must admit that more experience would result in a "cleaner" solder job.

Kit