250ED stator plate water damage

[Hosk1956]

Well my "Project Thunderdog" took a severe hit this morning, after the elation of hearing my Suzuki rings had arrived I decided to finish cleaning the motor and fit rings and motor back in frame this weekend. I hadn't yet tried kicking motor over until I ascertained the condition of the bore (OK) and rings (worn), doing some assembly I had to turn the motor over and discovered that she wouldn't turn, the clutch cover was of, all good there, so took the ignition side cover off, and this is what I found!
Too say I am devastated is an understatement, the oils all came out clean, the view down into the big end was good, so I wasn't expecting that sight. Damage appears to be external, I have to fabricate a flywheel pulley for the motor, so hope to get the flywheel of on the weekend, I am a bit scared about what I will find, I have a local bike electrical whiz who can probably rewind any stuffed coils but I was wondering if anybody knew of a replacement Stator assy (pt # 713018) from another brand that may happen to be the same as the 250ED stator?
The bike has been stored in a shed for 20+ years, it had been started regularly so it beats me how the water has got in to do this damage, the bike is in a real good original condition so I am only giving a good clean up of all the frame and motor, obviously a few things have to be fixed but looks like I will be splitting the cases now.
The reference to Suzuki rings is from another post where I told about a Suzuki RL/TS 250 piston that had been fitted in the past.

Wayne from Oz

[swcaudill]

What happened to the flywheel? Looks like the bottom is completely destroyed. I believe a Suzuki has a stator that will work.
Anyway good luck.
Sterling

[Bruce Young]

This very interesting to see, as you begin to remove items please keep sending pictures, I too wonder that happened to the flywheel. If its this bad just inside this side cover how far did the moisture go into the eng. Right behind the stater is a seal that keeps oil from leaving engine and spilling out into the mag. area, if its this bad, I would guess some moister got inside the motor. Be very careful to check everything. It might not be unwise to pull the head and cylinder to try and see what the crank feels and looks like. Good luck with this project and I am sure the Hodaka world will help you thru this. As I said before send pictures and lets keep the lines open. Bruce Young Hodakapartsidaho

[Hosk1956]

I'll have to post another pic of the flywheel, but it is intact, does look like a bit has been cut off though!
That effect is from water laying in the sidecover and it is a build up of slime.
I had already partially stripped the motor, the head and barrel are of checking the piston and rings, I have also taken the clutch side cover off. As said in my first post, the oils came out clean with no contamination at all, everything is honky dory in the clutch side with no signs of wear or contaminant. I could see down into the big end with no sign of problems, I have since turned the motor over, the big end is OK, no moisture has gotten thru to the big end, everything looks and feels good in there. Grinding/scraping noise as I turn it but I think that is coming from behind the flywheel.
How it has got water into there has me baffled, the previous owner sold me my first bike 44 years ago and we have remained good friends since, he is 87 now and finally decided to part out the old Thunderdawg. He hasn't ridden it for 25 or so years, but had been starting it up regularly, but I don't think he has done that for 20+ years, it has been in his garage all its life, so how that water got in there is baffling, my only thought is whether his drop kick son took it out for a ride years ago and dumped it in a river, but there was no other sign of being in water, unless he cleaned it real well to hide his misadventure.
I have been trying to buy this bike for a long time and have always been concerned his idiot lad would end up with it.
So the mystery remains, now to fix it, I have made up a flywheel puller so I will whip the flywheel of tomorrow (Saturday here), another Hody man here in Oz has one with TS185 stator plate so sounds like that will be the go, I'll check mine out tomorrow and take it to my bike sparky for an opinion whether to rebuild or replace.
And what would be others opinion about cleaning the flywheel by sand blasting?
I'll post a pic of the internals tomorrow, stay tuned for the update.

Wayne from Oz

PS, where abouts in Idaho are you Bruce Young? I have a friend who I stayed with in Boise on my last trip to the States, I hope to get over there again in 2019 (fingers crossed I will make Hodaka Days) and will be staying with Ann again then.

[Bruce Young]

Hello again, my location is aprox., 25miles north of Boise, little farm town of Emmett, Idaho.

Looking at the pictures again and seeing what you have heard or felt about this bike, the two cuts, in the Magneto remind me of chain coming off and cutting into Mag. The amount of moisture damage done in that side was a lot. The seals can keep it out of other parts, but thru time will seep in. I would double check the bottom end of crank, those sound might me needle bearing that broke up and grinding into crank or case. It needs to looked at. with crank out. That is great bike to own and it I am sure saved and you will have a lot of fun on it. Just keep digging into the water damage history. The truth will come out. Keep pictures coming and I am sure lots of help is one way, or at least a lot of suggestions, Do you have a manual for bike. Bruce

[JackM]

My money is on the "drop kick son" being the culprit. lol

[MTrat]

This is likely not the cause of your water problem, but it is common to pull the mag side cover on a Hodaka and find evidence that water crept in. One thing that can cause this is our attempts to 'seal' the side case. Then, when you cross a cold stream or hit the carwash, etc., water will be sucked into the mag area. Perhaps unintentionally, the shield tubing around the exit wiring may act as a vent and reduce this problem. It is not a bad idea to provide proper venting to the mag cavity....

[MWL]

This is what mine looked like. The bike had been sitting outside when I bought it so I assumed that was how the water got in it. I was never able to get the flywheel off that motor. I found another motor in very good condition to use. As for the ignition, I bought a PVL ignition for it and never looked back. Great performance and reliability. Also eliminates the very heavy flywheel. The crank shaft is heavy enough.

[Dale]

It could very well be the result of just washing the bike. A good amount of water can be drained from the mag cover after every washing. If not drained the result will be some degree of rust. If left for years, this can be the result.

[Bullfrog]

Wayne, if the bike was stored in an area with generally high humidity - and if the mag area experienced relatively large temperature swings frequently (lets say in a shed where direct sunlight came thru a window everyday and struck the mag cover) - then the semi-odd happening of "sweating" could have caused the situation over decades.

Imagine this, at maximum hot temperature on a high humidity day, air inside the mag cover heats and expands and some of it escapes (by any means available - which are many since the area isn't truly "air tight"). Then as the sun goes away, the mag area cools, the air inside cools and contracts and a fresh gulp of new, moist air is drawn in. In the coolness of the night, some of that new moisture inside condenses and trickles to the bottom of the mag cover ("sweating"). Repeat hundreds of times. Presto-chango . . . water inside the mag cover on a machine which hasn't been moved in 20 years (maybe). Note that this sort of thing can happen without the daily sun impingement. The two critical factors are 1) relatively high ambient humidity for an extended period sometime during the year and 2) frequent, semi-large temperature swings during those times of high humidity.

So you may never know what caused the water to be inside the mag case, since it could have gotten there by entirely natural means, untouched by human hands.
Ed
PS: It is a bummer finding something like that.

[matt glascock]

If there is metal missing from the fly wheel, which there appears to be, the fly wheel will be unbalanced and if that condition can't be fixed, it will be unusable.

[Bullfrog]

The scum and staining makes it LOOK like the flywheel has been eaten by chain wear . . . but it is just an optical contusion (yes, contusion seems better than illusion in this case).
Ed

[Darrell]

Meh, I've seen worse...but this stator has been sparking, charging, and lighting for 5,000 miles more, and counting.

I drilled a 1/8 hole in the flywheel cover and flooded the stator with with white vinegar, periodically draining followed by a pressure washing and refilling with fresh vinegar. This may need to be repeated several times over at least as many days, weeks perhaps. It's an old logging camp trick to revive machinery that had been sitting in the woods unattended for the winter. The cookhouse would have to order more vinegar than they needed for their own purposes.

The full-length story is in one of the Resonators.

[viclioce]

Found this on eBay, just in case you’re interested. Victor

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Hodaka-250-ED-Mo ... SwHMJYMYZr

[Hosk1956]

Well I had an Ahaa moment and a Woohoo moment this morning.
The Ahaa was when I realised there was no sidecover gasket in place, that would help explain the moisture in the side cover, I still think the drop kick son had a hand in it, old Ron wouldn't have let that happen to his doggy!
The Woohoo was when I got the flywheel off, it put up a good fight, your comment MWL was spurring me on, there aren't many replacement motors down here in Australia! I soaked it with Yield, I left it overnight with the puller done up as hard as I could screw it, I bashed it, I cursed it, finally got some gentle heat out (which speaking of, hot day here in Adelaide, 38* C at 9am), that did the job, which was thankful as I didn't want to be out in the shed all day battling that problem.
The flywheel external cleaned up ok, it wasn't damaged, the internal may take some more cleaning, I think I will try a mild sand blast.
So I hope that with some gentle cleaning it will all still work ok, seems to be a few options if it doesn't.
The bottom end all feels ok Bruce, but I have gone this far, and as the Hody motor is so insanely simple to strip I think I will split the cases and replace the bearings and seals, that crankshaft seal is probably cactus, that would be the second heartbreaking experience (we know the first, LOL) to find the seals stuffed when I had put it back together.

This is Ron with his bike when I picked it up

The 250ED is finally mine.

Success but ewwww

Looks good from this side!

[MWL]

Wayne
Good to hear you got that flywheel off. You are on the right track replacing bearings and seals. The 250 is my favorite Hodaka.
Mike

[Bruce Young]

Congratulations, you got it done, Its nice to see a successful turnout of a sad story. Now its on with the rest of the project, if you need any other questions answer, you can see we in the Hodaka World are here to provide guidance. Just ask. Please keep the pictures and up dates coming, we are interested to see how this all turns out. Happy riding and enjoyment of a great machine. God speed, you did it your way without all the special tools available, but you got it done. Please double check the threads on the Mag end of the crank as well, because they can be damaged when removal of the Mag. is a little tough. Have a great day. Bruce Young Hodakapartsidaho.

[Hosk1956]

Yes Bruce, very mindful of magneto side thread damage, but, fresh in my mind was my own experience as a youth when I struggled with a Wombat flywheel, the flywheel removal tool was borrowed and had a ridiculous taper on the end of the bolt, it flared the end of my crank rod! A machinist mate saved that crank with some talented lathe work.
I am not out of the woods yet, the lower 2 hex bolt bolts sheared when removing the stator plate but that will be an easy fix, of bigger concern at this stage is the crankshaft, 1) I have removed the crankshaft seal and pitting is evident right back to the seal area and 2) I have noticed the crank spins on the bearing inner race or you can spin the crank bearing inner race on the crank, I took a little bit of movie but I don't think I can post that.
My next post may well be after I have pulled the motor down, so I will give you all respite from my ramblings, that will be a few days away, more pressing matters must take precedent.

Wayne from Oz

[Bruce Young]

If I may suggest if you allow me to I might suggest you contact a couple of eng. builders here in the US and have them look at this area of the crank and get a professional suggestion what you be to do or not do. I thought I understand you are in Aust. is that true. Let me know and send me an e-mail address and will send you info. Bruce

[Hosk1956]

Hello Bruce, yes, in Australia, I was thinking the same thing, I have a mate who is a top machinist and into restoring old Ariels, he is the go to man for engineering for Ariel owners here in Australia. He has helped me in the past so I hope he will have a solution for this. Failing that, I will be on the lookout for another crank! and USA might be my only option.

Wayne from Oz

[joshandlisa]

Hi Fellas,
I’ve been at it working on my Thunderdog and found that the lighting coil has broken off my stator plate at some stage. The other two coils that sit one on top another are fine . So I was wondering if the lighting coil is needed at all? Or could I simple move the lighting coil to the other side of the stator plate where the mounts are still well intact? Any help would be great. Thanks