The 2 the Max Project

[hodakamax]

Ed, thanks so much! Not being very good at or at least not totally educated in engineering, I've got to follow my somewhat flawed design to the end. Pride? Making a point? Not really. I just have to make this thing work. Quite the learning process I must say but in reality no time wasted. How else do you learn? Actually the experience has been fun and educational. It makes me think and keeps me out of bars at least in the daytime. (just kidding---Maybe )

I do take advice and appreciate it. I have researched the bearing between the arms but most all end in a dead end. No split pillows in that small of sizes and if you find one it's too tall. One could use a mounted bearing by welding the outer arm on last. Your idea of a shorter and different block, all good. Several options are still open. I think my attack is quite doable but will require a bigger shaft. Live and learn. The school of hard knocks, part of my life! Humor me.

Maxie

[Hydraulic Jack]

I seriously doubt you will stumble on a mass produced bushing block that just happens to fit what you are doing. I was suggesting making one from scratch.

[Bullfrog]

I'm hoping that I'm being supportive of your original design concept. The photo shows the two sizes of UHMW (Ultra High Molecular Weight) plastic I have on hand. Note that I have the UHMW on hand specifically to handle unexpected vintage motorcycle project needs - and the "2 The Max Project" seems to fit that definition. Ennneywayeeee, the sketched "block" could accept your upgraded 12mm tube directly. A matching block on the other side of the machine would stabilize the whole assembly. Pretty much your existing design . . . but without ball bearings.

Another (easier) option would be creating some simple semi-precision bushings out of UHMW (or bronze which I happen to have on hand for the same purposes). These bushings would be sized to be press in replacements for the ball bearings in your existing bearing housings . . . and ready to accept the 12mm brake pivot tube.

Whatchathink?

Ed

[matt glascock]

Clever Captain. Ball bearings seem gratuitous to the task of this assembly. A stable, strong pivot assembly for brake dependability is the order here and the return spring can take care of the rest. Smart.

[hodakamax]

Thanks Ed. Your design seems sound and light. My ball bearing design is certainly overkill and somewhat weighty if only in ounces. In reality bushings would meet all requirements. I was just trying to do something innovative or different. I must say the assembly and motion has a satisfying precision feel to it. I must do the final step for my own satisfaction and then all my friends can save me with their clever and more practical approaches.

The bolt-in 12mm bearings are less than ten bucks each. Gimbaling bearings will make no difference with the stronger shaft. Stainless or aluminum material will look hi-tech which is part of the theme. If nothing else it should look cool.

Maxie

[Bullfrog]

I "get" the theme thing Maxie. When you already have a multitude of nifty looking Heim joints, a machined white plastic (non-paintable even) part just doesn't fit in with the "look". I'm with you 110% on that.
Ed

[hodakamax]

Again Ed and friends, thanks for your support and advice. Part of the problem is that I'm breaking some of my own rules. First of all, we probably don't need two ball bearings and a seven inch shaft for a 1/3 turn pivot. Worse yet my solution for a weak design keeps adding more weight. A bigger shaft of the same material would add several ounces. Some remedies would be different materials and/or use a tube rather than a solid shaft. More engineering.

Cosmetic looks and mechanical design sometimes oppose each other in the theme of the project. The current stage of the project is the road racer and engine test platform. Big changes will be needed should this proceed to the top end priority mostly in the weight area and depending on the class, streamlining.

The main purpose of this machine is to be a fun project which we all seem to be getting into. Innovation and problem solving are all benefits especially for old dudes like me. The project is also art. Motorcycles are designed around art and good or bad it is a reflection of the builder or creator. In the case of airplanes and motorcycles they should at least look fast and in the case of motorcycles, mechanical.

Just chattering this morning and reporting some views on the project and the meaning of life. One should also mention the social aspects of our projects which includes my motorcycling friends. All is well.

Maxie

[Hydraulic Jack]

" In the case of airplanes and motorcycles they should at least look fast and in the case of motorcycles, mechanical."

Since airplanes are capable of falling out of the sky from great heights, looking fast isn't an engineering criteria. It isn't even art in my opinion. Motorcycles can't fall as far, but can also get you hurt, so while appearance is commonly important to manufacturers, it is so due only to marketing, and not safety or engineering.

Think of it this way, form follows function. In that simple equation is an artistic truism that solves all of its own issues. There have been many a race car that was truly ugly to look at, but went like the devil, and as such were totally cool in their own world. Still, I don't find that beauty and function are mutually exclusive goals. If you can make something that works perfectly, but can't find a way to make it also attractive, that is an imagination problem, not something inherent in designing functional components.

The hand crafted parts of your brake assembly are functional and attractive. Why would anyone think otherwise? The parts not so glamorous are the bearings and interconnecting shaft. They look a little hardware department to me, but if they work, I have no problem. Problem is they apparently don't work. At that point, what they look like is irrelevant.

Design your linkage in three dimensions. Identify and record all of the forces placed on the assembly and generated by the assembly. Make a drawing that shows the direction of these forces, and then determine as best you can how much force is attributable to each part and direction. That will more or less tell you how beefy any given part has to be. Making it attractive is then up to you. Perfectly executed welds make even simple parts look totally cool. Goober welds make even great parts look like crap.

As I see it the problem is not with your design so far, but with your definition of what looks good. I think the assembly so far looks professional and attractive. Whether that raises it to the level of art I leave to others. If you are going to hang this on on the wall, function doesn't count. If you are going to risk your life on it, frankly function does count. None of these parts will look good with blood all over them, so find a system that works, then make it look as good as you can.

[taber hodaka]

I think the whole prototype will go through a rigorous test phase Max is the concept man. the designer, the man paying attention to detail and looks. He is the engineer the operator of the train and we are just along for the ride. Jack you should rise up to the spirit of competition and build the racer of all racers. We would marvel at both masterpieces. ----------Clarence

[hodakamax]

Remember the really old Saturday Night Live skit when Billie Crystal would would play the self centered social gad-about. His favorite line was "Better to look good than to feel good!" Well maybe not but it's a line that always made me laugh and I still use it along with my motorcycle friends. We've changed it to "better to look good than to be practical". Having been a photographer/artist/designer most of my career in advertising and private life, to me things must look good, stand out, send a message or set a trend. Ducati does not sell bikes on performance alone, they are works of art in a sense. They look good, stand out and at least try to set a trend or make a statement. Aircraft that look good (or fast) generally are. Part of this is design and the contractor selling this product knows that ugly things don't sell as well. Also things that look fast are fast because of mimicking fast things in Nature, think Falcon. Good design, not ugly, fast.

All of my motorsport designs, purchases and ideas are number one based on safety. My first vehicle, a 1949 Chevy received a seatbelt from the Western Auto Store after studying the odds. Better to be safe than to look good. Safety is paramount in design. Practicality is important as the product is to be used. Art can infer that you are fast, creative and/or serious in your quest and show that total design is important. Racing is not free we've all discovered and sponsors fit into total design. Art sells to sponsors, supporters and fans. Art is integrated in good design and part of all competitions. Art sells, no ugly Ferraris.

Conflict can arise between art, design and safety when not allied as a total package. A radical chopper art thing might sacrifice safety in the name of design. Bad idea. No total package. On the other hand the product can be over engineered in safety too the point of absurd or ugly. Not part of the total design.Trying to make something look good as an afterthought is just bad design.

Back to the brakes. You incorrectly state that they apparently don't work. They do work but could be improved with minor design changes which is happening. As far as stating your definition of what looks good to me being a problem is irrelevant to me. My profession of art and design is what I do. These are not my ideas but art and design are inseparable in human culture and history.

Just thoughts here, part of the discussion. I always respect your thoughts and help. I'm not an engineer, I'm an artist.

Max

[Hydraulic Jack]

Having built prototypes that have worked first time every time, starting at age 16 and more or less tapering off recently, I am not driven to building a racer at all. Not anymore. Already have done that a couple three times, all successful. I am neither artist nor engineer, but rather an experienced builder of things. My point most recently was to divert discussion from things arty to things that work.

And, no Max, your design so far doesn't work, which is what you yourself said. Something about deflecting the bearings because they were gimbal style. Actually, the deflection was allowed by, not caused by, the bearing design. The deflection was caused by forces not accounted for. The long flexible shaft concept simply will not work no matter which style bearing you use without central support, but until you proved that to yourself, it was up for discussion.

Frankly it doesn't matter to me what you build or how you do it. I was only trying to save you some time and some hospital bills, since you were finding your design so far to be a bit lacking. I also disagree that making something look good after it has first been made to work well makes it a bad design. Looks have little to do with engineering concepts, and it is engineering, not looks, that makes things work. You can start with a artistic concept and then make it work, but usually that requires compromise for the sake of practical result. There are many examples of this in the automotive world, and a few as well in the motorcycle world. Ford first made a car that worked. Then he spent the rest of his life making it look better. That it might have also worked better over time is a different question, and function and form are not mutually exclusive. That doesn't make Ford's process one of bad design. More one of evolution and applied science, blended with marketing demand. Harley Davidson is much the same story. I would not ride their first design even though it did work. I don't ride the most recent designs because I don't like the way they work OR the the way they look. That's just me.

Enjoy your process. At least you are having fun.

[Bill2001]

Looking good, Max. And it's still.a fun project. One problem with the "TLAR Engineering" we both use is that sometimes it will sneak up and bite you on the arse.

[hodakamax]

Hey Bill and Clarence and all the Gang. Thanks as always for your recent supporting comments. Fun things are always positive in my world of "better to look good than to be practical". Hey, it's a hobby, a project, an experiment, a learning experiment, a social outlet, a place where nay sayers aren't but discussion is. No time wasted so far as it's all fun and research to me. There are no arguements or negative vibes in my project although I'm starting to sense some on the horizon approaching insult to me and the theme. Criticisms and mis-quotes are not welcome on me or my project at least on my post. Let's try to keep this thing going in the positive direction. If nothing else, humor me. (like Ed does)

Comments for the day,

Max

[viclioce]

And along with that’s..... Victor

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r7chGllVEks

[hodakamax]

Too funny Victor, I didn't think anyone would remember it! It is better to look good!

Maxie

[ossa95d]

..."and you look mah-velous!" Good stuff!

[hodakamax]

Funny Ivan! Thanks for the giggle!

[hodakamax]

You've probably heard enough about solving first design problems of my pivot joint braking system but while waiting for the larger bearings and shaft to arrive I just had to review alternate fixes and to see how things work for my own satisfaction. The shafts ball bearings are needed for a easy return of the brake lever. The springs that do this are on the brake shoes. It works very well without supplementary return springs.

Even though the design actually works there is a flexing of of the 1/4" shaft of the original prototype design which is being updated with larger shaft and bearings along with stainless steel levers for appearance. Part of the flexing is due to the fact that the bearings gimbal which wasn't considered in the beginning which is what prototyping is all about at least for me.

More thinking on this while the new parts are in transit. With a healthy push on the rear brake lever the deflection of the 7" shaft is about .020" between the bearings, enough to be noticed at the pivot joint. All quite useable but not a perfect prototype design. My first thought was an additional support with yet another bearing in the middle. Hmm, bad design. The shaft is only bending under heavy braking and has stopped rotating. Only a stop in the center would be needed and as braking subsided the shaft would be free to return.

A quick working model was built and the clearance was set at a few thousandths. Quite an improvement when tested but still a slight deflection noticed at the pivot joint. Part of the culprit is the gimbaling bearings which still allow some bending in that part of the shaft. All of this confirms that we need a stronger shaft and/or non-gimbaling bearings. Hey, this is how I learn, I was probably taking an Art class at the time.

I hope I'm not boring everyone with my amateur research but I have learned several things about motion, physics, design and materials. Beats the hell out of TV.

Maxie

[JackM]

Hey Max, I noticed in your last pic that the hub is nice and clean. Do you have a special tool or product that you use to get them that way? I have a hub I'm working on with no spokes in the way and its still taking a lot of elbow grease to make it look good. Much harder when its mounted on the bike.

[hodakamax]

Eureka! Having fiddled with the problem enough and finding the gimbaling bearings were all allowing this flexing to occur let's move the bearings together on each side of the first plate. Wow! Works perfect with no flex or bend at extreme braking pressure! It appears that the problem is solved. Not only that, the 1/4'' shaft is not undersized in the change of position. Persistence and discussion. Yay!

Maxie

[viclioce]

Brilliant!!! As my friend across the pond would say! Good job Max!!! Victor

[Bullfrog]

Nifty creative leap Maxie!
Ed

[Bullfrog]

Nifty creative leap Maxie!
Ed

[hodakamax]

Thanks Gang. Ah, but the story of my life. The day after I figure all this out, the new 12mm non-gimbaling bearings arrive and the new 12mm stainless steel tube is on its way. I'll still make the upgrade if nothing else for the cool polished stainless steel levers I'm working on. Better to look good we always say.

The moving of the bearing also saves a minuscule bit of weight as we don't need the the crossing shaft and the two bolts and nuts on the far side. We'll throw them in the weight saved pile for a weigh-in when the project is done. It all adds up. The 12mm shaft will be hollow tubing and shouldn't weigh too much more.

I'm happy with the final design as much of it is hidden and just a shaft sticks out as I originally envisioned it. A long path but definitely a fun part of the design process.

Maxie

[hodakamax]

Hey Max, I noticed in your last pic that the hub is nice and clean. Do you have a special tool or product that you use to get them that way? I have a hub I'm working on with no spokes in the way and its still taking a lot of elbow grease to make it look good. Much harder when its mounted on the bike.

Hey Jack, The wheels were both on the bench and the bike. Nothing magic but I did try everything that I could think of. The Dremel tool with wire brushes was used every where it would reach which missed a lot of area. Disassembly would certainly help but also labor intensive. Hand brass and SS brushes got other parts but again not all. Harbor Freight had a set of hex mount brushes and a long extension handle which worked fair but brush life was short. I even tried it on a right angle drill accessory with mixed results. I also tried some compounds on the brushes which seemed no better than the brush alone.

I tried Aluminum chemical cleaners with little or no effect. Scotchbrite pads and steel wool worked on spokes. It all came down to metal brushes and labor and the more time you spent on it the better it looked. Finally you just say "good enough". There's always work you can do later I always say.

So, my report is nothing new. There must be a better way and probably is. A snake Dremel would would be useful but not tested by me. I wonder if walnut hull blasting would work and where it would be available. Anyone else have any other ideas vs labor and time or new parts?

Well, that's my not so informative report. I must say the wheels do look quite good but maybe not show quality. Let's just say above average for a vintage refurbish. I'm somewhat happy with the results and what I started with. I am having some trouble with streaking with my Eagle One Aluminum polish on things like brake plates and I'm looking for an alternative. Is Semichrome still available? Favorites?

Max