The 4th Hodaka - 2nd Road Toad!

[viclioce]

Tomorrow I tackle the Red Toad again! Need to get it off the lift! Victor

[viclioce]

OK. I've finally gotten back at it. I left it alone long enough.

I started with double checking the points gap. Seemed to be way off from the last time I gapped them. So I redid the gap. I now have it set at a slightly snug .013mm. So I figure it's a pretty close .012mm now. Spark looks really bright & should bring decent fire.

Hooked up my compression tester. I still don't know if I'm getting it secure enough to the top of the cylinder head. But, I'm getting lousy readings. Sometimes I can't get the gauge to read above 90! I'm beginning to think there is something I need to do to check compression and make sure it's not a bad top end gasket? The damned thing was brand new though.

I guess I'm going to have to check the compression gauge, maybe take it back & have them test it. But I just can't believe a fresh bore with a .008 ring gap and .004 piston gap has it producing these low numbers. So anyone have any ideas what I should check? Thanks! Victor

[Hydraulic Jack]

New parts do not guarantee the result. It isn't all that hard to damage a crank seal during installation, or you could have missed a major fault in the engine cases around the crank. The head could be warped. A lot of things could be wrong, new parts notwithstanding. Assumptions here won't help find the problem. So even though the parts were new when installed, the diagnostic process is exactly the same as it would be for an old motor with parts of unknown vintage.

There are several obvious places air pressure can go astray. Head gasket, base gasket, crank seals both sides. Or places where pressure can bypass the design to produce low compression. Broken rings, a cylinder damaged or out of round, clearances broader than you think they are, or too slow an engine speed while conducting a pressure test. Try pushing the bike in gear instead of kicking it.

And then there is the gauge itself. It should have an o-ring to seal against the cylinder at the spark plug gasket surface. If it doesn't have some kind of positive seal, it could be leaking just as you suspect. You should not have to over tighten the gauge adapter just to get a positive seal. Or the gauge readings could be way off. Test it in an engine of known performance and see what you get. You lawn mower, another bike, a car. Something that you have a screw in adapter to fit and you know it works. It won't tell you if the gauge is accurate, but it will give you an idea whether the readings are realistic or not. Try someone else's gauge. See if the car parts store has one to loan out.

Try putting a squirt of heavy oil in the bore and do a retest. If the oil makes a huge difference in reading, it's the rings. If it makes no real difference, it isn't the rings. Spray soapy water around the head and base gasket areas and have someone watch for bubbles while you kick it over.

A pressure test kit isn't hard to make, and for times like this, it can be the difference between finding the problem right away, or spending hours fiddling with it and finding nothing conclusive. If the crank seals are shot, no amount of head gasket glue will fix it.

Bottom line is that 90 psi probably isn't enough to get the performance you want even if you do get it started.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Observation number two: piston clearance and ring gap clearances are within spec but are broad as a starting point. A skirt clearance of .004" is half way worn out, but it isn't fatal to getting workable pressure. Same with the ring gap. Some knowledgeable race type have said that ring gaps twice normal aren't the problem we think they are. But it does bring some questions to mind.

If you have not been rebuilding motorcycles or car engines for a long time, your measurements could be a result of technique more than reality. That is, you measured 0.004" skirt clearance. Are you sure? Did you use a micrometer or feelers? Did you get that measurement in three distinctly different places in the bore, top, middle, and bottom of the stroke? Did you get those same measurements at places in the bore 90 degrees opposed, that is, front to back, as well as side to side? The cylinder may have been freshly bored, but it would not be the first time a machinist didn't do the job you expected. So is the skirt measurement something the machinist stated, or something you measured yourself?

Are the ports chamfered? If the rings are catching in the ports, it could be causing them to skip and dump pressure. Did you verify the chamfering before assembly? Is the bore honing fine or coarse?

So much of this is simply process. It isn't obvious at first, but after rebuilding dozens of engines it becomes second nature, to the point that we don't always think about what we are doing anymore, and just do it. But if you don't know about the dozen things to check, you will easily miss something. It isn't a crime, it's just a matter of experience.

[viclioce]

OK. Measurements done by the shop. I specified the numbers to them. Yes the ports are chamfered including the relief of the exhaust port bridge. All to specs as discussed here, previously. I'm basing it on him telling me the numbers given. The guy who machined it also rides & maintains a Honda Elsinore CR 125. So I trust him to work on a 2 stroke top end. Yes this wad the first time I had a bore job done, so it's why I've been HIGHLY dependent on folks from this forum to steer me in the right direction.

[viclioce]

Jack. Assuming 220 inch pounds equates to 18.3 foot pounds, the head is torqued to 220-225 inch pounds. So I guess that's OK, right? I'll get some help today and check for air bubbles around the cylinder head & base to make sure it's a tight seal.

Also remember, this is the case that the left crank seal seat broke out. It was alumawelded buy the best guy in town. But I will check to make sure the seal there is OK. See the pic below. Is it possible that the welding beading is causing the seal not to seat properly? Should I file the bead down smooth???

I'll post as soon as I have answers, if any new ones. Victor

[Hydraulic Jack]

Cleaning the visible bead wouldn't add anything, so no, I wouldn't file or grind it. As long as the broken piece was relocated correctly before welding, it should be okay. If the entire broken piece shifted during the welding process, I suppose it could be off axis. Whether that would cause a leak is a question best answered with a leak down test.

If you want to, remove the side cover and magneto assembly to expose the seal area and spray it with soapy stuff, then kick it over several times. See if you get any suds on that side around the weld or at the shaft and seal area.

[viclioce]

I think the seal looks OK. What do you think? Still looks new to me, no bends, irregularities or gaps that I can see. Will test it with soapy water to be sure. Victor

[Hydraulic Jack]

It looks okay but test it anyway. Good project for the grand kids. Technical assist watching for bubbles.

[viclioce]

Reconnected the compression tester and kicked it by foot instead of by hand. Is this still reading to low? Looks like 115-ish, assuming the gauge is working correctly? Victor

[Hydraulic Jack]

Much better. Did you have the throttle wide open? How many times did you kick it over? Until pressure stopped rising?

One of the shortcomings of a Hodaka in this regard is that the kick start device doesn't cycle the engine very much. Maybe two revs? Hook up the gauge, throttle wide open, tranny in second or third gear, clutch in. Get it rolling, dumpmthemclutch, and push until you run out of beans. See if you get a higher number. You should.

Running compression is always quite a bit higher than static compression, so that if you have 120 with the kick starter on an engine not yet broken in, you will have 30 or 40 psi higher when running at mid rpm or higher. I would think that 120 would get you running. Those with more rebuild experience can venture their opinion if it differs from mine.

Try to start the engine now that you have good spark.

[viclioce]

No, no throttle open. Yes on kicking until it stopped climbing.

OK. I'll give it a go. I'll try the push start method and see if that does anything better. Victor

[Hydraulic Jack]

Vic,

Throttle has to be open, otherwise it is like trying to suck air through a straw. If you got 115 - 120 with the throttle closed, you should do better throttle open. See if it will start.

[squid on a 300]

at 90 with the throttle closed and using your hand and 117 with your foot and the throttle closed you should have more than enough to run...probably some other issue but try doing the compression test correctly to see what you get to verify you have enough compression...throttle wide open use your foot! kick until it stops climbing...Eliminate one thing at a time compression, ignition, fuel.

[viclioce]

OK guys. I'll report back soon. Have to go to Albuquerque for school clothes/shoes shopping for the grandsons! More to come! Victor

[viclioce]

I think these were the OEM tires for these Road Toad wheels. The odometers said they had only 1409 & 1608 miles depending on which frame they came off! Victor

[viclioce]

Rain, Rain, Rain! It hasn't stopped raining!!! Victor

[viclioce]

Well. Remember the problems I was having with the seat not fitting correctly on the Red Toad? I came to a resolution this evening!

I had another seat pan, which was completely rusted through down one side, not at all usable. But, it had a rear seat bracket the same size as the seat I had recovered for the Red Toad. I grabbed the ends of the brackets with channel locks and started bending them back & forth until each one broke free from the rest of the bracket. This gave me about an inch & a half of bracket ends, WITH the threaded steel (nuts) on them. Held them in place, one at a time with my smallest vice grips and took after it with my wire feed welder.

Now, my welding isn't that pretty because I'm still new at it. But as I went through welding these pieces on, my welding even improved a bit! So I got them welded on and gave myself an extra 3/4" of extension on each side of the seat. And, it worked!!!

I was able to bolt that seat on without needing someone to sit on it and mash it against the fender! Problem solved!!!

And my nephew has healed enough, from his broken wrist, to come over and work on the Red Toad! So tomorrow we can try push starting it and see if it will fire & run! Maybe after it fires and everything is flowing, it will start by kick starting after!?!?!?

Now that I have the point gap issue worked out, and I know I'm getting good spark, and hopefully, have enough compression, have a seat to land our butts on to try push starting the bike.

Wish me luck! More to come tomorrow! And no, I didn't take a picture, because I'm not that proud of my welding abilities, yet! Victor

[viclioce]

OK. I've taken all of the slack out of the clutch cable, but I can't seem to get the clutch to release enough when I engage the lever. Does this mean I need more shims or less shims in the clutch disc? I'll have to open it to say how many are in there. Victor

[viclioce]

OK. So I guess I have to push it in neutral and then drop it into second and pop the clutch?

I pulled a few things apart. Was wondering if the reeds were opening & closing correctly. Pulled the carb, pulled the intake & the reed cage. There was fuel on the inside of the cylinder beyond the reed cage & both sides of the reeds were wet. But, when I pulled the spark plug, there was no sign of fuel on the spark plug. Opened carb and main jet was clean & open. However, the opening in the center of the pilot jet was clogged, even after cleaning initially. Maybe sitting dirtied it up?

Cleaned pilot jet and put carb back together. Now ready to put carb back on bike and try again. Will post results later today.

Damn! I hope I'm close.... Victor

[viclioce]

Holly Crap!!! She started!!!!! Dirty pilot jet was holding her back. Now it's clean!

Here's my observations now that she's running!
(Oh My God! Did I really say that?)

1. She has stock jetting. A 160 main jet & a 30 pilot jet. She started on 3 kicks! But she also started without the choke engaged, and if I tried enguaging the choke she would start to flood until I turned the choke off! So, I'm going to drop the main jet to a 140 and see if it starts & idles better. Right now the air screw is out 1.5 turns.

The overflow is also dropping fuel. So since this carb has the detached floats, I'm going to need some advice for correctly adjusting the gloat levels.

2. The key off does not turn the motor off. The OEM kill switch on the mirror mount does not function. But I bought a simple new one to put next to it, and wire it in place instead. I'll need to check the Black ground wire to the ignition switch to make sure it's properly connected. I hope it's not a bad switch.

But she made very light blue smoke and she rev's when you twist the throttle!!! YEAY!!!!

All I need for this bike to be conplete are the adjustments mentioned above, and a set of red rear reflectors for the rear rack! Anybody have a spare set they can part with??? Victor

P.S. go to the Hodaka Facebook page to see the video of her running! For some reason I can't copy the link with my phone!

[dirty_rat]

I wouldn't change the main jet for starting problems. The main only effects almost wide open throttle positions. The problem is more likely associated to your floats and float needle not sealing or out of adjustment. Don't change the main jet until you see how it runs at near wide open throttle openings (and after you have corrected the float situation).

[viclioce]

OK. The carb is overflowing out the overflow piece atcthe bottom. The plastic nipple is broken off so I can't even add a piece of fuel line to the overflow. Need to know the specific on how to adjust these black plastic floats. I've only done the one piece brass kind. Do they still adjust the same way? Flip it over and adjust the brass Ramon the pivot so that it stops parallel to the edge of the bowl? Thx! Victor

[viclioce]

OK. Fuel dripping and all, I got on her and rode her! Also wired in the new kill switch and installed so I could shut off the engine.

Had to loosen the clutch cable at the case. It was way too tight and rev'ing without moving down the road. Got it adjusted and rode it back & forth in front of the house, stopping to adjust the slippage out of the clutch. Got the clutch working really well!

So, I took off down the street and ran it through all 5 gears. With that big rear sprocket, (I think it's a 62 or 65 tooth, maybe bigger) I got her up to between 35-40 mph on the speedo, depending on how accurate the speedo is working. Brakes are adjusted fairly well but could use some fine tuning. Down shifted through the gears, slowing down and hitting 1st gear. Made a 180* turn in the road and started heading back. Shifted into 2nd and accelerated. Went to shift into 3rd and all of a sudden, Pop! No power! No spark. Can't kick her over. Had to push her home.

With the key not turning the bike off and it starting in either the On or Off position, I need to check my ground wires & make sure nothing has come loose.

I did replace every single male & female bullet connector in the harness with exact matches. So, I'm hoping it's just something worked loose. The headlight is very dim until revving the motor up pretty good, but the horn, turn signals & tail light are not working. Didn't test the bulbs before so I could have some bad bulbs, but all of them? Also tried the AC/DC switch in both positions, no difference with the lights & horn. But, I'll get there. And the battery is provably toast. It sat for too long, unused. So I'll need to buy 3 new batteries!

And, of course, suggestions are always welcome! Victor

[viclioce]

She has come a long way, from that empty frame, to this! Just need to buff the tank & add the tank badges & graphics! Oh yeah, & mount the front fender back on! LOL!!! Victor