Slow going off the line

[Bullfrog]

Oh! My subterfuge has already been discovered. You weren't backing away from the Dremel fast enough to assure safety for your clutch. So . . . using my rank and contacts . . . a Mission Impossible style operation was organized and completed in short order to save your clutch from possible grievous harm.

Captain Eddie

[matt glascock]

Bill, after the Captain's operatives fast-roped into my shop and appropriated my mandrels, I've now learned that they welded the chuck on my Dremel. Additionally, someone spray painted "Put down the Dremel and back away" on the top of my bench. But hey, they left a brand new fine-cutting triangular file. Yes, the Captain runs a tight ship indeed. Last time he yelled at me, I needed to have a good cry

[Bullfrog]

Matt, I suspect we could go on like this for days . . . but out of respect for our fellow Hodakaphiles . . . mayhaps we shouldn't. Um, did my operatives leave a file comb? You are going to need it.

Ed

[Bill2001]

We are stealthily formulating a plan to ventilate the clutch housing with a Dremel in conjunction with a 45rpm turntable. Keep tuned...

[matt glascock]

Love it. File comb - check

PS - I've been accused of running my bikes AND bad sense of humor into the ground. Just ask my wife.

[Bullfrog]

Hmmm, it looks like there may be a bit more mileage in this thread after all. It appears that the Athena centric name of "file comb" may have shot by you - so I did a Google search and discovered that the world apparently thinks that a file comb is more properly called a file card. Go figure. But you will still need one. So I misdirected you with my choice of nomenclature -- much as you did with the use of the word "mandrel" to describe "burr". Um, I've not noticed any bad humor in this thread . . . until I typed THIS response.

Chuckling in Oregon,
Ed

[Bill2001]

I call it a file card but I've also heard it called a file comb... the name seems to be interchangeable. I do that they are rare. The local tool stores don't carry 'em. I'll do a search. But it is useful to files clean. I've been using a small toothbrush-sized wire brush on my files in the meantime.

EDIT: McMaster-Carr has file cleaners, aka file cards. I need some .032" stainless lockwire and other supplies.

[matt glascock]

I'll file file comb in my mental filing card file for future file maintenance. OK, that's all I have.

[sparkyj]

Happy 4th y'all.
.........Light Fuse - Get Away.

Pardon me for taking this back to TDC.
Top Dead Center
(or Total Doofus Cranium)
Insert your TDC here..........


Installed new clutch pack parts, newer type, along with new pinion bushing.

The clutch is acting the same, with just a tad of clutch pull, getting the grinding rod knock sound and when pushing down on the gear, it wants to stall and when selecting up from that gear totally dies.

Does this sound like a bearing issue?

Maybe i shouldn't have put the left over BBQ Kraft Singles in between the friction plates....

Round 2.......

[Bill2001]

Sounds like a clutch adjustment issue. The clutch is.not releasing. Not the same as before-- then the clutch was slipping and not engaging. Get your shop.manual and do the adjustment from the clutch arm on the side cover to the clutch lever on the handlebar.

[sparkyj]

The clutch is making noise throughout the entire pull of the clutch. The same as before. yes.

[sparkyj]

Bill. Maybe I need more spacers. The lever moves more than 3/16 for sure. Just trying to imagine why the "graunch" sound would occur through the entire pull of the clutch distance. Just sounds "bad". (original problem). Maybe it is a cable adjustment at the case, but to be honest it sounds like maybe this rattling in occuring even in the slackest position and increasing as you pull the clutch. Make sense? I can try and create a video.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Sparky, we need to establish some baseline data. Several items in no particular order:

1. When you say you installed new clutch parts, new style, I am going to assume you mean friction discs, but how many did you install? How many steel drive plates?

2. There was discussion on how to blueprint your clutch. Did you do any of the procedures outlined in the blueprinting process? Particularly, did you address washboard grooves in the clutch cage?

3. Are the clutch assembly screws in your clutch stock items or full thread replacements? Did you fully tighten those screws on assembly?

4. While the clutch was apart, did you measure the height of the clutch cage? Over the years Hodaka made several clutchs that are nearly impossible to tell apart, but which do not all have the same part count. That is, if you put the right number of clutch plates for an Ace 100 into a clutch with a cage from a Super Combat, the parts will fit but you won't have a clutch that works. So, when ordering friction discs, did you start with the assumption that the clutch you have is correct for your model of engine? If so, that assumption could possibly be wrong.

5. When installing the assembled clutch, did you put back the spacers you had, or did you start from scratch and verify how many spacers were needed to properly index the clutch? If you merely but back what was there, it may or may not be what you need. Remember, your clutch didn't work right to start with. Putting back the same spacers only puts you back where you started, and that may not be where you need to be.

6. Does the clutch rotor have smooth teeth or are the edges dinged and sharp. The drive plates are not the only pieces in the clutch assembly that must move freely against the cage. While it is not mentioned in the blueprinting explanation, I believe the rotor has to be relieved in the same way the drive plates are relieved, and for the same reason.

7. Is the clutch actuating arm free to move when the clutch cover is off the bike? No drag, no crunch? This is a process of eliminating possibles. There are only so many parts involved, so you have to verify that the crunch isn't caused by a) the clutch lever (hand lever not case arm), b) clutch cable including adjustment ends, c) actuating arm on the cover, or d) thrust button, before you can say with certainty that the noise is coming from e) the clutch pack.

But most likely, the noise is coming from the clutch and not the levers and cable. Easy to check these things. If it is coming from the clutch pack, I would say it has to come back out. Take it apart and start over. I don't know of a comprehensive listing of clutch case heights, but there are enough folks out there who have these things in their garage that we may be able to positively verify which cage you have and then how many discs are needed. Post photos of that cage including a view of the gear teeth inside the cage. These engagement teeth are aluminum and the drive plates are steel. Excessive wear on the aluminum teeth will cause a graunchy clutch. As will drive plates dragging on screws, especially if the screws are full thread and not smooth shank style. Think "blueprint clutch."

I suppose we should also verify that the clutch springs are fully seated in their respective pockets within the clutch. They can get out of orientation during assembly, although if one of the springs is sideways, I would think the clutch would not work at all. I have never tried putting one together with a spring sideways, but no doubt it can be done.

Lots of details in this process. Start over, photo document what you have, and we go from there. The clutch assembly is not the simplest piece of a Hodaka.

[Bullfrog]

Since you have strange noise all the time when you pull in the clutch lever, I have to wonder if the bearings in the "clutch disc" (I think of it more as the "throw out bearing") are shot. The clutch disc (as it is named in the Illustrated Parts manuals) is the item between the clutch pressure piece in the clutch cover and the clutch - and the spacer shims go under it. Anyway, if just the slightest pressure on the clutch system to disengage it starts the noise - then a close inspection of the clutch disc is appropriate.
Ed
PS: If the clutch disc checks out with no problems . . . the next suspect is crank bearing.
PPS: Sorry for high jacking the thread there for a while with our hi-jinks . . . but now we are back on topic.

[sparkyj]

Thanks HJ,
Here's a quick reply (well it took some time and I appreciate your very detailed reply)


1. When you say you installed new clutch parts.....
I got the Clutch rebuild kit Item# 934000kit for the Mdl 92, 93, 94, and 96
It has 3 black (thinner than stock) steel clutch plates and 4 fiber friction discs (with the holes in it).
They were assembled in the same order as the old discs which was just like the drawing in the manual, For the ACE 100B clutch assembly.
(I feel there is a gray area here with the later model 100A aces, which I assume is what I have, example-Wiring diagram is same as Ace 90)
I took special care to make sure the clutch plates made it into the groves of the clutch cage while tightening the 7 screws.

Honestly I don’t understand how those plates are supposed to move when you eliminate all possible motion when tightening the cage cover down. Is there still a tad bit of spring play left?

2. There was discussion on how to blueprint your clutch.......
I don’t have access to the blueprinting article, So perhaps I need to join the Hodaka Club to gain access.

3. Are the clutch assembly screws in your clutch stock items.......
They are the stock screws with the drilled holes in the end. They are tight and wired

4. While the clutch was apart, did you measure the height of the clutch cage........
Did not measure the height of the clutch cage. What height are we looking for?
I assumed it was correct since I did not uncover any warnings from the manual. That said, seems like the manual sort of doesn’t address the model that is in between an Ace 90 and a model 100B

5. When installing the assembled clutch, did you put back the spacers you had......
I did not have a set of clutch disc spacers handy. I put back the one spacer that was on the clutch disc upon disassembly. if I had a set of spacers, I would have been able to dial that in better so, this for sure will be needed.
Q: Would the lack of spacing account for a growl throughout the entire range of clutch pull? Sounds like the shaft is getting forced into a wonky set of bearings.

6. Does the clutch rotor have smooth teeth or are the edges dinged and sharp....
On page 2 of this thread I posted images of the gears, download/file.php?id=5347&mode=view
They seemed pretty good. Looking at the picture now there appears to be a questionable wear mark on one of the teeth but i think that is a reflection. I replaced the pinion bushing with a new one. I reused the thrust washer and btw, there was no way to tell which side of the washer was the “round edge” side. Both edges looked right angled. (sharp)

7. Is the clutch actuating arm free to move when the clutch cover is off the bike...
Arm moved freely. As well it doesn't seem to leak.
The crunch almost sounds like it is coming from the gear shifter side. with even the slightest clutch pull (like 1/4”), you hear the Knogga Knogga Knogga….). This is why I’m wondering about a crank shaft issue if the pressure of the applied clutch is putting pressure on something.

....Post photos of that cage including a view of the gear teeth inside the cage.....

previous photos are here (simply back up a few pages)

I will have to disassemble again to get complete pictures.

....verify that the clutch springs are fully seated ...

I was carful to seat the springs. This has the single 7 spring set up. Would be curious to know your approach to lining up the fiber discs, metal discs, cage and shaft teeth to keep it al together so you can tighten it down whilst keeping metal disks from getting pinched and not getting slight movement off the shaft splines. i had to do this very carefully several times. Was a PITA. The manual definition is confusing!

Thanks guys!
Dave

[sparkyj]

Since you have strange noise all the time when you pull in the clutch lever, I have to wonder if the bearings in the "clutch disc"

Ed, you may be on to something.

that disc was all wobbly. Now I don't know what acceptable amount of 'wobbly" is passable on an old bike but if that little thing could make a lot of noise to transfer through the case, it might be easier to start there than ripping the case apart.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Thanks for your answers. Here are two photos of what Ed refers to:

In the second photo you can just see a couple of bearings peeking out from under. The small shaft and button head ride on this bearing. The shaft is pretty much free to wander a bit until the button head is under pressure, at which point the bearing is loaded and should roll freely without wobble. No grit. Any grittiness you feel in hand is greatly amplified in use. This piece can be accessed without removing the clutch, just the clutch cover needs to be removed.

From your responses I would be willing to say let the clutch itself be for now. Sounds like you did well putting it together. Washboard on the cage won't cause the noise you hear, it is just a step in building a good sound smooth clutch.

Which leaves us with these two possibles: 1) the clutch piece in the photo has a bad bearing or is full of grit, 2) one or more of the crankshaft bearings is bad. Hopefully it is number one. A bad crank bearing may be able to be felt with the clutch cover off. First, spark plug out to relieve compression, turn the crank by spinning the clutch with your hand. Feel for grit. If there is roughness in the rotating assembly, it's time to replace bearings and seals. If it passes a free rotation test, now rotate the clutch as before, but this time push in firmly on the clutch assembly toward the crank and rotate back and forth. If there is roughness now where there wasn't before, it is probably a bad bearing race on one or the other of the bearings, and it is time to rebuild.

If it is neither of these things, it may be that whatever is wrong can't be felt just turning slowly by hand, and only present itself at speed and under real time loads. If this is the case, it may still be the bearings, but here it would probably take an experienced ear and hand to guess correctly, which probably leaves you either to make your own best guess, or just rebuild the engine with new bearings.

As for how the clutch works when screws are fully tightened -- the rotor stays put and the whole darned clutch presses in and out. If there was no compressibility in the assembly, there would be no need for springs inside, so yes, it does still have compressibility in the springs. It is the cage that moves over rotor and plates, not the plates that move inside by pressing on the assembly. There are digital examples of wet clutch function on the internet. Look around. They all function similarly if not always the same.

Oh, and you will need to buy a selection of spacers. One usually isn't enough to preload the assembly, and there is no fixed combination of spacers that is right for all. This is one of those "shim to fit" things. Measure the one you have, and buy a couple of other thicknesses. Then you can find the combo that is right for you. Mine, for example, uses three shims for a total of 1.46mm in shim thickness. Yours will likely vary but may use two to four shims depending on which thicknesses you have or need.

[sparkyj]

Thanks HJ,
Looks like I'll be draining this oil no less than 2 more times. I better go finish up the sour cream and salsa in the fridge. Need the tubs

[Bullfrog]

No need to drain the oil. Lay the bike down on the shifter side (protect the shifter). Wind the kick start lever back and hold it out of the way with a long screw driver. Remove clutch cover. Do inspection. Use heavy grease to hold clutch pressure piece in its bore when you reinstall the clutch cover. Voila - no need to drain your fresh oil.
Ed
PS: Hydraulic . . . deburring the clutch hub is mentioned in the Blue Printing article (with photo.)

[sparkyj]

Hey Ed, thats smart! does the oil drain to the other side? does the bike have to be totally flat?

here's a video.
its hot here so don't laugh at my flip flops, heh...
Was trying to keep it lit while giving the clutch a few squeezes (and holding the phone)

https://youtu.be/ugp52-pEtfc

[sparkyj]

Clutch disc video
https://youtu.be/TTAzyj6dUfk

I have to post one url at a time. Sorry.

I know, its a wonky wire job using old original wire. getting new wire soon.

[sparkyj]

Clutch disc vid 2
https://youtu.be/9O8To01vDZ8

[sparkyj]

Clutch rotation inspection
https://youtu.be/JD8wFJ25b8c

Ed, when I laid the bike flat, the oil went out a vent somewhere when I stood the bike back up, and drained out the other side somewhere. What could have happened? i want to avoid that in future...

[taber hodaka]

The clutch disk bearing looks good to me. I think you might have loose or excessive ring side play? I also think you could be missing the thrust washer under the clutch? The groove's that exit the pinion bushing must face the engine. If you lost oil out the left hand side your seal behind the sprocket is bad, or the o ring on the shift shaft is missing. The clutch should not move in and out with the crank shaft. --------------Clarence

[sparkyj]

Thanks Clarence.
Excessive side play? the spacer ring?
Thrust washer is there, last in line up against the big bearing. Pinion bearing X is facing engine.
bad Sprocket seal makes sense.