Mayday! 250SL down!

[Darrell]

While starting off from a stop light today all was fine until I shifted to second upon which time the clutch (seemed) to suddenly start slipping to the extent that the bike would not move forward. Clutch lever action and adjustment didn't change and seems normal. No abnormal mechanical sounds presented themselves either.

Fortunately, I was only a couple blocks from home -- at the end of a 110-mile day to explore the site of a long abandoned ski hill -- the bike could have stranded me somewhere up the mountain.

Alrighty, so I pulled off the clutch cover and don't see anything amiss, e.g., no debris, lots of oil, etc.. Ditto for the shift mechanism, it's pushing and pulling on the shift shaft as it should.

Regardless, I'm rotating the engine with the kick lever and watching the activity with the clutch cover removed -- everything looks and sounds fine but I can turn over the engine in any gear and the rotation isn't translating through the transmission to the countershaft.

What might have gone wrong?

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

[thrownchain]

I'll take a shot. Does the bike roll while in gear? Not turning the motor over? Do all the gears turn? Crank and clutch basket? Over all I'd say the plates are worn out. Either that or something is keeping the clutch from compressing totally.

[Bullfrog]

Seems like time to remove and disassemble/inspect the clutch to me.
Ed

[Darrell]

Thanks guys.
The bike rolls in gear(s) without turning the engine over.
Could a sudden failure of the clutch still be cause? Nothing changed at the clutch lever. From another angle, it's almost as if the ball receiver went away.
I hope it's the clutch, or at least something I don't have to split cases for.
I'm having a hard time getting my brain in gear (as well as the bike it seems) on this issue. What should I try next?

[thrownchain]

If you have the cover off, disassemble the clutch and check it all out.

[Bill2001]

At this point it doesn't matter why-- the clutch needs repair and you are 3/4 of the way to having the clutch disassembled, which is the only next step in this job.

[Bullfrog]

. . . and only after removing the clutch can you get a definitive "feel" regarding whether or not the ball receiver has disintegrated (extremely unlikely)
Ed

[michael_perrett]

See if the countershaft control rod still has the circlip on it. After removing the shift cover, see if you can pull and remove the control shaft.

Mike Perrett

[BrianZ]

Although a bit of a long shot, there was a instance here on this forum where one of the pressed on mainshaft gears spun on the shaft. The test is easy, does the bike work in any of the other gears?

[Darrell]

Although a bit of a long shot, there was a instance here on this forum where one of the pressed on mainshaft gears spun on the shaft. The test is easy, does the bike work in any of the other gears?

In this case all of the gears are dysfunctional.

I'll have a chance to pull the clutch off tomorrow and that should reveal something. Sourcing new clutch discs and plates for the 250 from SH or H-P, if needed, looks like it may be a problem. If they're not worn too thin then perhaps I could scuff the discs and get it grabbing again.

[Bullfrog]

DOH! Mike Perrett's comment is right on target if forward operation under power went off like a light switch . . . with no hint of power transmission to the rear wheel in any gear. (the DOH! is because I forgot the possibility of the control shaft snap ring coming off.)

If there was clutch slipping which went rapidly to full bore no clutch connection (in terms of power transmission to the rear wheel) - then peeking inside the clutch is called for.
Ed

[Darrell]

I'm going to try the control shaft and if seems OK I'll pull the clutch.

Clutch action went from 100 percent up to the stoplight, then barely getting me across and intersection at the green, then no clutch on the other side.

[Darrell]

Was anybody going to guess that the countershaft sprocket stripped the splines clean off of the countershaft ?

That's the problem with my 250SL now. Does sort of breakdown happen everyday? I'm tempted to weld the sprocket to the CS -- but I suppose that's kind of lame.

I just put the cases apart about 500 miles ago. Split happens (again), I guess .

[Bullfrog]

Well, that's a new one on me! So, no, I sure wasn't going to guess that!
Ed
PS: Yeah, I'm thinking welding the countershaft sprocket on is probably not a good idea.

[Darrell]

Well, that's a new one on me! So, no, I sure wasn't going to guess that!
Ed
PS: Yeah, I'm thinking welding the countershaft sprocket on is probably not a good idea.

I found the problem when I stuck my thumb into the countershaft (clutch side) and rotated the rear wheel. When the countershaft didn't turn with the chain the bells went off.

I'm thinking I really want to be a hoser (that's Canadian) and am seriously thinking about welding the sprocket on now. I've since looked online and spline shearing to occur quite often in the ATV/Quad world and a few of them have welded the sprockets and counter shafts together.

One difference is that the Hodaka countershafts are rather thin-walled compared to a conventional design, and I hope the bearing and seal won't be heat damaged.

Whenever I split the cases again (in the distant future I hope) I'll just grind the welds off and replace the countershaft then.

[michael_perrett]

Darrell, were you using a hodaka countershaft sprocket, or one from another brand, such as a Honda xl250?

Mike Perrett

[Darrell]

Darrell, were you using a hodaka countershaft sprocket, or one from another brand, such as a Honda xl250?

Mike Perrett

Hi Mike, it was the original CS sprocket. The end of this story is that I bought a NOS countershaft and did what it took to take out the old and put in the new.

The cause is still a mystery. The CS nut hadn't turned and neither had the lock washer -- its spline tabs were intact as well. I suspected the CS was possibly AWOL for the heat-treating, but visually I could see it had been tempered.

###

I'm wondering where to look for a new primary coil for my 250SL, at least. If you saw the condition of my magneto when I got the bike you would wonder how it could ever spark, charge, and generate again.

As I recall, the primary coil for the 250 is made up of two windings. I read that you adapted TS250 coils to the stator. What year(s) Suzuki are compatible?
Thanks,
Darrell

[Darrell]

It did machine a nice groove in the shaft, if that's any consolation --which it's not really

[michael_perrett]

Darrell, I installed a 15 tooth Honda XL 250 cs sprocket 'cause Hodaka never offered that size, on my 175. The sprocket splines are not as deep as the Hodaka and therefore do not engage the Hodaka cs splines as much. I was and still am concerned about the slight lack of engagement with this set up.
As for the coils, the 1969 and 1970 Suzuki TS 250 had points, while in the 70's they had CDI ignition. I am not sure if the 69 and 70 coils would be different, but I used the ones from the 70's model. I used both Suzuki ignition and lighting coils.
Mike Perrett

[taber hodaka]

This is the only time I have ever heard of this, how common is this for Hodaka? did Ed warranty this at PABATCO very often? ----------Clarence

[michael_perrett]

Darrell, if you still have the old countershaft, can you take a file and see if you can notch the splines near where the sprocket ran? This will test and see if it is hardened.
Mike Perrett

[Darrell]

I still have the old countershaft, it keeps company with my holed and seized 250 piston.

For curiosity's sake I will test it with a file. However, both the new and old countershafts had about an inch of blue showing at the sprocket end.

I confirmed that the primary/ignition coil in the stator is made up of two separate coils mated, or piggy-backed together. I don't know what purpose, or function, that design serves.
###
Hooboy! Looking back I see I make a lot of typos in my posts, glad people seem to understand them anyhow.

Darrell Ohs

[Bullfrog]

I believe that the larger of the two coils provides the "power" for the system to produce spark, while the smaller of the two coils provides the "trigger" signal for the system to work. (but I don't have a good background on that system)
Ed

[Darrell]

I believe that the larger of the two coils provides the "power" for the system to produce spark, while the smaller of the two coils provides the "trigger" signal for the system to work. (but I don't have a good background on that system)
Ed

Thanks Ed, I take it then that the function of the smaller tigger/pulse/pickup coil is what makes a CDI "pointless". After receiving an impulse from the former then the primary/main/source/exciter does it's traditional function. All this overlapping terminology for the same parts really annoys and confuses me .

Anyhow,I sense impending doom someday if I don't intervene by replacing these ugly old coils before they choose to expire in the middle of Timbuktu.

I wonder what they should Ohm test at? I'm guessing a low 1-point-something for the primary coil (hot and cold) but have no idea what it should be for the trigger coil

[michael_perrett]

You might try and research the Suzuki ts 250 specs. They may be the same.
Mike Perrett