Timing the Hodaka

[hodakamax]

Occasionally I have to bring this to the top.

[hodakamax]

Again--

[hodakamax]

Occasionally I need to bring this to the top.

Max

[spudman]

Well Max...what looks so simple in your directions here has me completely stumped. I clamp one of my little alligator clips from my continuity tester to the crankcase and the other to the black wire that runs from the stator plate up to the coil and I get a consistent beep from my tester. That's where the problem begins...the beep never stops. I watch the points open as I turn the flywheel and even as they break, the beep keeps going. I then tried the blue wire that goes from the stator plate up to the coil...same thing. I have to believe I'm doing something so obviously wrong here that I'll be embarrassed when I find out what it is, but this has really thrown me for a loop. I can't even get the tester to show a break in the circuit when I physically hold the points open with my fingers. Am I connecting my tester to the wrong wire(s)? I know there are also wires (including a blue and black and others) that come from the stator plate and head back toward the ignition switch, but I was almost certain that the wire I need to connect to is the one that goes up to the coil. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The bike ran fine before I started a basic restoration project about a month ago (.30 over bore, some painting work, etc.), so I'm hoping this is simply a matter of me doing something wrong. I just want to get the timing set correctly before I start it up for the first time after the bore job later this week. Thanks!

[hodakamax]

Wow, it's been a long time since I wrote that post. I don't know what to tell you except the points are not being included in the measurement. Sounds like there must be something bypassing the points like a short to ground. I've never used a beeper only a light. The light does not go out but only dims. Perhaps the beeper is not that sensitive. I'm trying on this end, keep me posted! I'll keep thinking!

Max

[Bullfrog]

Max, the answer is hidden in your response. Your light doesn't go out, it only dims. Likewise, the buzzer always buzzes . . . but MAY change volume or frequency. I used the word "MAY" because so much depends on the specifications of the buzzer circuit. Some buzzer circuits may not signal the points opening with a reasonably noticeable change in the buzzer sound. A buzzer circuit designed for this particular use SHOULD provide for a noticeable change in sound volume or frequency (but that doesn't guarantee that it does).

Ennnnneywayeeee, listen to the buzzer closely spudman. Notice any change when the points open?
Ed

[spudman]

Well, that certainly helps. I was under the impression that when the points opened, a buzzer would stop buzzing, a beeper would stop beeping or a light would go out. I must not be fully understanding just exactly what happens when setting the timing this way. Isn't there a completely open circuit when the points open? Anyway, I'll pick up a lighted continuity tester tomorrow and try that. I honestly didn't notice any tone difference in my tester beep, but perhaps there was. Thanks!

[Bullfrog]

You may have read recently about all the wires which get soldered to the top of the condenser, they are part of the "rub". When you are connected up to the machine with a light or buzzer, the points opening removes ONE path for those pesky electrons to complete the circuit to your tester, but not ALL the paths. That's why Max's light dims (resistance goes up). Some buzzer circuits will "notice" that change in resistance . . . and some may not. Back in the day I had one which was designed to work with the three coil mag systems, so it really "noticed" the resistance change and the buzz changed a lot. Wonder where that thang is?
Ed

[spudman]

Well Bullfrog...reading your response makes me feel good. I looked at that clump of wires on the condenser earlier and thought the same thing; how can the circuit be "broken" when all those wires are soldered together? It's starting to make sense. So let me ask this...instead of the light or buzzer, couldn't I use my analog multi-tester set to the "resistance" mode? Wouldn't I necessarily see needle movement when the points open while in that mode? I just checked the owner's manual for my tester and it does say that while in continuity mode, the sound level should decrease as resistance increases. I really didn't hear any difference though as the points opened. That's why I'm thinking I should just put the tester into the resistance mode. I can leave it in "automatic", or my other options in this mode are: 20 kOhm(x1), 200 kOhm(x10), 2MOhm(x0.1k), 20 MOhm(x 1.0k) and 200 MOhm(x10.0k). Since I have no idea what those ranges actually mean, I guess I'll try "automatic"!

[spudman]

OK guys....absolutely nothing about how this method of setting the timing is making sense to me, even though I truly think it should! I went outside today and watched the needle on my analog tester in both the resistance and continuity modes and there is absolutely NO movement in the needle or change in the tone when I rotate the flywheel for an entire revolution. Next, I placed a popsicle stick in between the points and then touched the two probes of my tester to each side of the points. Again...the beeping tone was still loud and clear! So...thinking perhaps something was wrong with the points, I installed a brand new set that I just purchased. Same thing...even with the points held apart with the popsicle stick, there was continuity. Now...when the points are NOT MOUNTED TO THE STATOR PLATE, there is NO continuity between the two sides of the points with the stick inserted between them. So what am I missing here? I just don't understand how I can use a light or beeper or buzzer to indicate to me when the points "break" during a revolution of the flywheel when they appear to have constant continuity as soon as they are mounted to the metal stator plate. Bullfrog (Ed)...I'm pretty sure this is due to the reference you made above to the "clump" of wires that are soldered to the top of the condenser, but that said...how will I ever get the points set correctly using this method? Is it time to just give up and try to watch when the points break with the naked eye? Any suggestions are more than welcome at this point. Oh...and as I stated above, the bike ran perfectly before I started the engine painting, clutch gasket replacement, etc. work, so I don't really think this is any kind of an electrical "short" issue. Thanks for any help anyone can offer!

[Dale]

First question: Is your kill switch on?

One side of the points are isolated from the stator plate by the very small fiber insulators. Double check where you have the blue lead connected to the points. The spade should be to the right of the fiber washer and not touching the mounting point.

Also, try connecting between the Blue and Black wires going to the coil rather than using frame ground. While frame ground should work, there is something else going on here. Yes, you should be able to use your Ohm meter, a test lamp or a buzzer just fine.
Dale

[spudman]

The kill switch is in the center "run" position (as opposed to the left or right "off" positions). Hopefully that's where it needs to be for this method. I did as you suggested and connected one lead from my tester to the black wire going to the coil and the other to the blue wire going to the coil. Also double checked the blue lead going to the points and it was as it should be (spade to the right of the washer and not touching the mounting point). Still the same scenario...constant continuity throughout the entire full turn of the flywheel. I just set the point gap to what my manual calls for (model 99 Toad) which is .008-.010 when the mark on the flywheel is lined up with the left mark on the engine case. Looking as closely as I could, it also looks like the points are just beginning to move apart when that same mark on the flywheel is aligned with the right mark on the engine case. I would have much preferred to use light or buzz-box method to be more accurate, but I just don't know why it's not working for me. If it weren't for the fact that I had a (hopefully benign) growth lopped off of my left vocal chord earlier this morning, I'd literally be screaming right now. Doctor says to rest the chords for a few days though.

[Dale]

Nuts, I was hoping that you would find the kill switch on, which shorts the Blue and Black leads together thus grounding out the Ignition. I still suspect that you have a short between these two leads or the Black wire is somehow grounded out.

A quick test for spark would eliminate any suspicions of the Ignition circuit. Have you tested for spark?

Another thought: When you clip onto the Blue and Black wires, are they unplugged from the coil? I am not sure what model you are working on. I'm guessing a Road Toad or 03 Wombat by your description of the kill switch. If so, unplug the largest of the connectors under the seat and then connect across the Blue and Black going to the stator.

[spudman]

Yep Dale...I noticed the other night that a blue and black wire ran up to that kill switch, so I made sure that the switch was in the run position. Now though, I may be about to make that embarrassing discovery or statement that I was worried about last night. I just checked for spark...and had none. Then, I turned the ignition key on and I had spark. Am I to believe that in order to set the timing using the method that Max suggested, I need to have the ignition switch (key switch) turned on? I honestly didn't know that if that's the case. As for the black and blue wires...yes, I have them unplugged from the coil. In reading your response though, I'm not sure if they need to be unplugged from the coil or not when doing this. As for what you mention last in "another thought", I'm not 100% sure by what you mean here. When you say the "largest connector under the seat", are you referring to the hard plastic connector that is like about a 6 to 8 pin connector? And then I should connect my tester to the blue and black wires coming into that connector from the stator? Sorry about all the questions guys. Like I said...this method of setting the timing looked so easy when I first read Max's post, but it just seems as though there are so many variables here that can mess with the continuity. As always, thank you in advance for any help Dale. My bike is in fact a model 99 Road Toad.

[Dale]

Yes, you are correct on the hard plastic connector under the seat. Unplugging this will isolate the ignition switch too. And yes, connect to the blue and black wires at the disconnected plug going back to the stator.

No need to apologize about the questions. Sometimes we do things and don't even think about it. This is always a good exercise.
Dale

[spudman]

I'll give this new method a try in the morning. Thanks Dale. Just to be clear....I should also have the blue and black wires from the stator to the coil unplugged as well?

[Dale]

I do mine with just the plug under the seat unplugged and use a homemade buzz box.

[Bullfrog]

If all else fails, you could fall back on the ol' cellophane method. With the points open, insert a strip of cellophane in the points. Now rotate the flywheel to close the points on the cellophane. With very light tension on the cellophane, slowly rotate the flywheel while watching for alignment of your timing marks. The cellophane will be released when the points open . . . if the timing marks are aligned at the instant of release . . . you are close enough for general use. I like to confirm ACTUAL timing with a simple low cost automotive timing light.
Ed

[spudman]

Hey guys...using the blue & black wires from the plug under the seat provided the same result. For whatever reason, I just don't seem to be able to utilize the standard buzz-box or continuity light method on my bike. So...I went with the cellophane strip method and I appear to have things set very close to what it should be. This whole thing has me worried that I may have a bad ground somewhere though, so this morning I started checking and cleaning all the electrical connections I could see. Just unplugging them all...lightly sanding the male bullet connector tips and applying dielectric grease before plugging them back together. That reminds me...I know the headlight runs off the engine and doesn't come on when the key is turned on, but do the turn signals run primarily off the engine/magneto too? They come on now with just the key on, but only flash once or twice before giving the impression that the battery is weak. The battery is a strong 6 volts and the horn and all dash lights work fine, so I was just wondering about how the turn signals are primarily powered. Thanks.

[MTRob]

I messed with the timing on my bikes and still have some hair left till I found this on EBay HODAKA ACE 90 100 DIRT SQUIRT100 SUPPER RAT WOMBAT SUPER COMBAT TIMING TOOL If you go to eBay search type in (Hodaka Timing tool) it will show the tool. It works great.
Check it out.
MTRob

[spudman]

Looks like a nice little device MTRob. Fortunately, my Toad fired up and ran quite nicely today after utilizing the old cellophane strip method recommended by Bullfrog. I'm going to take it for a little ride tomorrow morning for some "break-in time" and then I'll try to get some photos posted. Thanks to everyone for your help!

[dcooke007]

Spudman,
The turn signals on my 03 Wombat had the same slow flashing condition. At first thought I might need to replace the flasher. Made some basic checks before hand and flasher replacement was not required. I ended up taking both rear turn signals apart and found poor grounds. There is a ground tab in the turn signals and the connection was corroded. Removed the tab and soldered a wire to both sockets and grounded to the frame. Cleaned the bulb sockets and nice bright rear turn signals...but no flashing. Removed front turn signal lenses, clean bulb sockets and removed turn signals from mounting stems. Cleaned stem to turn signal mount to provide good ground and signals blinked but a little more slowly than seemed reasonable.

Completed my engine install and with engine running turn signals flashed at a normal rate. Battery completed charging and now turn signals operate as they should.

Long story I guess just to say check connections and ground circuit.

Danny Cooke

[hodakamax]

Hey Spudman, sorry for all the trauma on the light/timing issue. Something weird was happening. I used the method just the other day on a model 99 engine on the bench and it was business as usual. Probably one of the other wires was taking it to ground somehow. The cellophane and feeler gauges work fine but just aren't as accurate or easy in my opinion. Glad you are up and running!

Max

[spudman]

Yep...definitely up and running for sure! A few things to report:
1. Turn signals are fine when the bike is running. Apparently they work the same way the headlight does (primarily off the magneto).
2. I should have included a new float valve needle and seat when rebuilding the carb. I had a small leak before I started, but assumed it was either the bowl gasket or drain plug gasket. After now reading threads here detailing how common it is for the seat to go bad, I purchased a new needle and seat this morning.
3. Cleaning up all the male and female bullet connectors I could find was a good thing to do. Removing the coil and cleaning up its mounting point was also smart!
4. I'll still try to utilize a timing light of some sort to get the timing "just right". Can I assume that I'd need just a regular old timing light that connects over the outside of the plug wire for this? I know I'll likely need an external 12 volt battery to power it, but with that type of timing light, what am I looking for when using the two hash marks on the engine case and the one on the flywheel?
Thanks guys!

[dcooke007]

Spudman,
I use a timing light like you describe with no problems. Also have to use an external 12 volt power source. The mark on the flywheel and the mark to the right side of the engine case should align. My timing light has a timing advance measurement feature. If yours does also just make sure the timing light is at zero advance position.

A little finger nail polish from my wife's collection aids in being able to see the timing marks.

Danny Cooke