clutch question for the pros! and more!

[matt glascock]

Thanks Ed. Looks like a Dremel extravaganza is in order. On my other CW (disclaimer - I really thrash the dickens out of that bike - it seems to love it) I get a grinding noise when I disengage the clutch and when engaging first gear, it often takes off with a lurch. Shifting from 2nd through 5th is smooth. Should I be looking for a similar issue with it's clutch? Is a full-tilt rebuild in order? Is my bald spot becoming more obvious? Do I ask too many questions? As always, thank you!

Best,

Matt

[Bullfrog]

Matt, I don't know about the bald spot . . . but something is blinding me right now. However, back away from the Dremel and nobody will get hurt!

1. Dremel might work on burr removal from the steel plates - but you only want to just remove the burr and leave the maximum amount of relatively flat edge thickness possible as "bearing area" against the teeth of the clutch cage. With that in mind, Dremel use must be very judicious and craftsmanlike.
2. I can't think of any way in which a Dremel can be used to remove the "washboarding" from the teeth of the clutch cage. That operation requires the use of a triangular file and a craftsman's touch. The faces of the clutch teeth on the inside of the cage need to be smooth and FLAT - hard (impossible??) to do with a Dremel.
3. Do you get a "grawnch" sound anytime you pull in the clutch? If so, that is a symptom of a worn out clutch bushing. The taking off with a lurch is usually a symptom of steel plate burrs and "washboarding" of the clutch cage teeth. It could also come from steel plates hanging up on the threads of the clutch screws if the clutch has fully threaded screws and nylock nuts. There is a tuning tip for clutches on this site which tells how to fix that - and you could use your Dremel for that.

Ed

[matt glascock]

Yes Ed. There is a definite grawnch on clutch disengage but the noise continues as a grinding/whirring noise. Kind of a graaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawnch. I have a couple clutch bushings in the parts stash so that will get replaced. Regarding the take-off lurch, I can't remember if it is a wired clutch or secured with nylock nuts. Sounds like a wired clutch is the way to go. For dewashboarding the cage, a triangle file it will be. Looks like the only gig here for the Dremel will be using one of the little buffing wheels to enhance my burgeoning apical skull sheen. Thanks for the great direction. I'm all over it!!

Best,

Matt

[matt glascock]

Hi Ed et al. So new clutch pinion bushing, inner and outer thrust washers, and rebuilt (wired) clutch pack all installed. Clutch nut torqued to spec 250 inch lbs. Pressure piece held in position with a dab of waterproof grease. Now there is zero free play in the clutch lever and the clutch pull is extremely tight. Of course this was realized after filling the crank case with oil (rookie mistake). I noticed that there were two very thin washers - more like shims or spacers - under the clutch disk. The old friction disks were thinner than new but still within spec. Would these spacers account for the lack of free play and would their removal remedy this new development? As always, thanks!!

Best,

Matt

[Bullfrog]

When you say, "zero free play in the clutch lever", you mean the lever in the clutch cover - right? If so, then yes, your next step is to remove one or both of the shims under the clutch disc (sometimes nicknamed the throw-out bearing . . . perhaps only nicknamed that by me?)

This "problem" is produced by your old "thin" friction disks. As the friction disks wear down in thickness, the whole clutch assembly "moves out" (away from the center of the engine) which "uses up" the free play at the clutch lever on the engine. The shims allow you to adjust for that up to a limit . . . then it is time to replace the friction disks (and install some shims to take up the newly found free play). You have not yet reached the limit yet, but you are getting there with those "old" friction disks.

You do know how to remove the shims without draining the oil, right?
Ed

[matt glascock]

Indeed, Ed. The free play - actually lack thereof - I'm referring to is at the clutch arm on the clutch cover. Extremely tight. Its interesting that the interplay of these clutch components is, in a certain way, counterintuitive in that as the friction disks wear down the freeplay is decreasing - if I understand properly how this system works. Your explanation really makes sense now that I visualize what is happening internally. I think that the clutch system may have moved a bit centrally as it looked a bit like someone flattened the pinion bushing a smidge with a few good wangs by a brass hammer. Amazing machines. I will remove the shims. I hope I'm not flashing my noobies in an embarrassing manner here but I'm hoping that by laying the bike over on the shifter side I can keep at least a bit of the brand new BelRay 85W in the case. Am I on the right track here and any pointers are, as always, much appreciated.

Best,

Matt

[Bullfrog]

That's it. Lay bike down on the shifter side - I like to use a piece of 4X4 under the frame to protect the shift lever (also handy if you happen to be doing a "ball receiver-ectomy" since it allows operating the shift mechanism while the bike is laid down). Rotate the kick starter back and "lock" it back with a large screw driver, hammer handle or stick. Remove clutch cover. I'm sure you'll fill in the blanks on how to proceed from there. Be sure to have your heavy grease on hand to hold the pressure piece in place in the clutch cover when you reinstall it.
Ed

[matt glascock]

Will do, Captain. Thanks so much for the sage advice. I really appreciate it. I'll report on the effect of shimectomy.

Best,

Matt

[matt glascock]

Hey Ed, here's the final word on my new clutch set-up...buuuuuuuuuuutterrrrrrr. A million thanks!

Best,

Matt

[Bullfrog]

"I love it when a plan comes together." Hannibal Hays - The A Team

[matt glascock]

Did you "pity the fool"? B.A. (Bad Attitude) Baracus

[Bullfrog]

Well . . . there was the "back away from the Dremel and no one will get hurt" bit!

Since the backing away seemed to happen . . . there is no need to "pity the fool".

Its been fun playing with you on the internet.
Ed

[matt glascock]

Thank you, Captain. The pleasure has been mine for sure. The dreaded Dremel denial - hilarious! YTM! (that's "You're The Man" - my 12 year old daughter had to explain that to me. I'm not that hip apparently). The CW absolutely rips. Worked out on the track with it for a couple hours today. Shifted perfectly. Hare scramble coming up in a few days. I can't wait. Thanks for all your help!

All the best,

Matt

[budpat105]

This has turned into a great clutch learning post! I was going to ask if to much free play on case clutch arm would cause the clutch to grab all at once, but looks like I need to do some work on washboards and steel blueprinting. thanks for all the help!!!

[matt glascock]

Just got back from the scrambles. CW ran perfectly. Pilot did ok too. Missed no shifts, no graunch, no grab. Awesome. Take it from me, if you follow the Captain on this clutch business, disengaging and engaging the clutch for shifts will be like grabbing a handful of warm, melty butter while sitting in a Jaccuzi filled with melted butter as a beautiful forest nymph drizzles your forehead with - wait for it - warm, melty butter.

[Bullfrog]

So am I understanding your post correctly? It sounds like the clutch worked OK? It's hard to tell what with all the talk about food.
Ed

[matt glascock]

It worked perfectly, Captain! This particular course is quite hilly in the form of many short (20-30 yard), really steep hills. Like riding across giant corduroy. Also, amusingly, there is a mile or so section that alternated rapidly between soft, deep sand and loamy dirt; also hilly. Throw in a couple water crossings with insanely steep max rev 2nd gear climb-outs and there's just something for everybody. In other words, the clutch and gear box took a fairly sound thrashing. I was almost continuously shifting or feathering the clutch to keep the revs in the sweet spot. No missed shifts at all. I did change gear case oil between motos and noticed good, clean used oil and nothing on the magnetic drain plug. Also (and thanks again for this suggestion from another thread) I employed packing the shifter cover cavity lateral to the inner cover to the rafters with Bel-Ray waterproof grease. A light skimming between motos and I was down to fresh, clean grease. Awesome!

Many thanks and kindest regards,

Matt