98 Super Rat almost all there - Stator advice

[jakethesnake]

I'm new to this site and to forums in general. Recently got (2) 98 100cc Super Rats. One bike is complete and original with no work required. The other (parts bike) is almost all there. I'm only missing a Stator Assembly, Ignition Coil and a Carburetor. The Carb I can find easily online. I'd like to know if I can use the Rotor and CDI unit I have and then build the rest from other Hodaka models? Are these parts unique to this model 98 Super Rat or being Japanese can I fit a Honda/Yamaha etc unit. For this build I'm not looking to for the finished project to be original I'd just like to build up the parts bike as a MX ride I can enjoy and leave the complete bike alone any advice appreciated.

[olddogs]

The coil is an easy one as these CDI equipped bikes used coils also used by the other Japanese bikes of the era. You can find them with the same wire harness connections if you look. They are common because they are 12 volt and not specific to engine size. I think Paul has them new and used in inventory right on this web site.
Honda 125 stators from the mid seventies can be swapped in with few modifications if no Hodaka units can be found. The rubber grommet where it passes through the case needs to be modified, and setting the timing to Model 98 specs would be needed. You have the 2 toughest parts to find, the right rotor and right CDI unit.

[Bullfrog]

I may be over-cautious here . . . but I would recommend using "matched" stator and black box. Meaning both components should be from the Honda system OR both components should be from the Hodaka system - but not a "mix" of those two components.

Also note: The Hodaka internal rotor CDI system provided for a quite large change of timing over the RPM range. It exhibits timing which is quite "advanced" (well before TDC) at low RPM (for "punch") and quite "retarded" timing at maximum RPM (much nearer TDC) (for engine protection). The amount of change in timing which is hard wired into the black box was "state of the art" at the time it was specified . . . but very shortly later it was found to perhaps be not quite the best "advance curve" which could be designed. Ennneywayeee, the published timing specifications for the Model 98 Super Rat engine are based on that large swing in ignition timing. If you change to the Honda system, you should NOT use the Hodaka published timing specs. (since the Honda system doesn't have nearly as large a "swing" in ignition timing).

Ed

[olddogs]

It is nice to hear some input on this subject. I knew my post would generate some debate on the topic and I would like to learn more. These parts are become harder to find and we race a very long (28 moto season times 3 bikes) series. In order to keep going, creativity is a must. I am no expert at ignition systems but have not tried the Honda cdi unit along with the Honda stator. I always assumed the ignition timing curve was part of the cdi units function, hence the "brain box" nickname. The Honda rotor has a different width keyway so I have never tried using all 3 of those pieces together. Is there any function the rotor plays in timing, ie magnets placed in different locations? Looking for an education.

[Zyx]

Doesnt the PVL system also work on this machine?

[olddogs]

I like your idea. I would love to spring for 3 new PVL systems. But, 30 dollars in gate fees for 3 riders, $30.00 entry fee for each class, for each rider. Times 14 races.
Gas, parts , food, 250 miles average trip to the various tracks pulling a trailer. It runs into the thousands just racing for 1 season, and we just finished our 3rd season. Keeping the Hodaka name running and on the track is our goal. Being able to afford it is also one.

I have to come up with alternatives when we go through as many parts as we do keeping three 42 year old, highly modified bikes running for an entire season. Maybe PVLs are something I can ask Santa for this year.

[Bullfrog]

DOH! Yes, magnet size and placement in the rotor does indeed have an effect on operations (and I kind of forgot that issue). So rotor and stator should certainly be considered a "matched set". There is some room for the concept that the "black box" might be "moveable" between the Honda and Hodaka systems . . . but I would still lean toward caution and keep complete systems together rather than mixing components from systems.

Ed

[BrianZ]

I can't speak for the Super Rat, but I am running a Honda ignition on my Combat Wombat reed valve engine. The entire ignition (stator, rotor, coil and CDI box) is from a CR125 (can't recall the year). The keyway in the flywheel does not line up with the keyway in the crank, but if you install it carefully in the correct position and tighten the flywheel nut the taper will not allow it to move. The stator backing plate is slotted, so some movement is available for timing adjustment. So far the system has been bullet proof (I probably shouldn't have said that) .

Brian

[Zyx]

STOP WHINING about how much it costs to have fun with your hobby. I compete with a herding dog, an Aussie. Training: $3,500+ over the past four years; annual competition fees: $5,000+/year; transportation around the country: $5,000+/year; vet bills: $1,000/year+. Probably missed something.

Or, how about racing off road cars in the Outback of Australia for two seasons: build Jeep: $4,000 for original Jeep, upgrades $50,000+; entry fees two races $5,000; transportation of vehicle two seasons: $14,000; transportation driver and co-driver two years: $7,000; beer in Oz: $100/year; food and lodging two seasons: $2,000. Again, probably forgot something.

PVL system, what $350??? By the time you find something that isn't intended for a Hodaka and make it work, you will have $350 in it anyway. The better perspective is to find something that not only works, but is still supported, and gives you the advance curve you need to survive.

[taber hodaka]

The rich should give spare parts to the poor-------------Clarence

[hodakamax]

Wow, the Old Dogs group seem to be Hodaka Super Heroes, We need some sponsors to support the cause. What better way to spend our hard earned money than sponsoring our cause of Hodaka vintage domination of the inferior brands. What amount do we have to raise to buy three new ignitions? Count me in for a paltry ten bucks to this outstanding cause to defeat all enemies of the Hodaka Universe. Come on gang let's fight the battle with the best equipment. Our strength is in numbers!
OK, maybe I'm a bit extreme but I've spent money on worse things. Yikes, they are $400 a shot. Let's see, If I give $10, we need $1,190 more to make our team competitive. We need only 119 more fans to donate $10. This shows how expensive a race program can be. Just thinkin'.

Maxie

PS--Wasn't it Archimedes who said "All fun hobbies are expensive."?

[olddogs]

You are correct! Fun has a price. But when you are trying to stretch your fun as far as it will go, options for replacement parts come into play. I think the original post had to do with getting a play bike running. I support this sites business by ordering parts on a routine basis, as well as parts from the other major supplier, but the stator itself is no longer available from either. If you can use a different part I want to share the information. I also wanted input as to the possible drawbacks or problems with using these parts. Since these parts were used for 3 or 4 years on the other bike, they are easier and cheaper to find. You rarely see Hodaka CDI parts for sale as they were one year only items. Unfortunately some guys may not be able to spend $375.00 for an ignition to get a bike running that they may have gotten at a yard sale or their uncles barn. The PVL is without question the way to go if your funds for fun allow it. Hodaka got it start as being the fun affordable bike sold by dealers in your small town or neighborhood. I would hate to see having some fun getting out of reach for the average guy.

[rtboone]

Greetings

Couldn't jakethesnake get his second 98 running with a stator and point system from a model 99?
I think that those parts would be be easier to find and less pricey.

Tom

[Zyx]

I was over-emphasizing a point. Whether the exact same parts as used by Hodaka for the 97 and 98 were also used by another manufacturer, I have no idea. So many things need to be the same: diameter and taper of the crank mount, adjustable bracket that bolts to the Hodaka without butchering something somewhere, a timing curve that works with the Hodaka (PVL is static which simplifies timing), wiring loom or at least output wires you can use, a coil that matches the system. I understand Honda systems have been used. Could be, but you should be certain of what to get when you go looking. Does anyone really know the timing curve on a Honda system from 40+ years ago, or where to look to find out?

If cheap is important, clearly a new PVL isn't going to happen, but at that point I would look for a magneto system from another Hodaka that will bolt in and work fine for fooling around.

Sponsors??? What are those? I have always been out of pocket.

[olddogs]

OK, Time to stick a fork in this one. Its done. You can use a different manufacturers parts but they should be used as combo set. You can mix some of the parts, at your own risk. I have done so for years with no harm, but favor sometimes protects the foolish. I will definitely match the parts whether Hodaka or others on my current race bikes to avoid fate catching up with me. 1 PVL will be ordered for Christmas and a bake sale will be planned to get them for the the other bikes.

[Zyx]

Greetings

Couldn't jakethesnake get his second 98 running with a stator and point system from a model 99?
I think that those parts would be be easier to find and less pricey.

Tom

I believe so. Someone who has tried it may say with more authority, but really, I don't see why not. I think the crank ends are the same between the CDI and magneto models, so probably. Those parts are for sure easier to find.

[racerclam]

The Honda elsinore set up works and the rotor is the same taper but the key was is in a different location amd mut be used with out the key but you need to reference the corredt position with aknown hodaka rotor. I cant remember what the timing curve is for the honda but harry had told me ti was better than the hodaka. And yes the 97 is the same as the 98 ignition

Rich