Yamaha ring free

[DGardner]

I was wondering if anyone has ever ran Yamaha ring free or there new product engine med rx? It says on the bottle that you can run it in a 2 stroke. I run Blenzall bean oil and was wondering how it would work? It would be nice if it did work just to keep the rings free and not have to pull the top end off to clean the carbon off. Thanks DG

[hodakamax]

DG, even though bean oil is an excellent lubricant it is and has always been a problem in that it clogs exhaust ports and such. Synthetics such as Yamalube 2R and the Honda equivalent are the thing to use today. They meet all the requirements for 2-strokes without carbon build up. My opinion would be to change your lubricant to a modern equivalent. (Unless you just love the smell). Try it and I think your problem will go away. Again, just my opinion but I have used and tested both products extensively through the years. In answer to your question, I have not tried the products that you mentioned. Hope this helps!

Max

[Zyx]

Nearly as I can tell, Yamaha ring free is comparable in use to a dash of Marvel Mystery Oil mixed in the gas. Not that this hurts anything, but the upper cylinder benefits of MMO are roughly akin to urban myth. In a two stroke, I would expect very little.

But I also notice that this product is most often used by or talked about by water cooled outboard engine owners, not motorcyclists. Also, those benefits claimed by boat owners are attributed to the additives ability to mitigate carbon deposits from MTBE found in gasoline. These days, gasoline makers have reduced or abandoned the use of MTBE in fuel. Ethyl alcohol is the bigger issue these days, but not because of residue in the combustion chamber.

I am not sure I would mix this or any other fuel additive with bean oil, simply because bean oil is or can be touchy about what it is mixed with. Nothing you can add to bean oil premix is going to eliminate carbon buildup. That's why bean oil is best used by weekend warrior types using small batch premix within a day or two of mixing. I still love the smell, but would not use bean oil in fuel that is going to sit around more than be burned up. I have never let bean oil premix sit in a bike tank overnight. It has been known to separate especially in colder temps.

The easier approach here is to use modern two stroke mix as mentioned above, and skip the additives.

[DGardner]

http://www.snowtechmagazine.com/engine- ... rporation/
I did find this article on the engine med rx.

[RichardMott]

This is why I have switched to 91 octane ethanol free gas in all my motorcycles and garden equipment, weed whacker, lawn mower, etc.
Still use a stabilizer though. The gas can sometimes sit for a month or more.

I have been using Pennzoil outboard 2 stoke oil for the last few years with no issues.

[hodakamax]

Good advice from a couple of the Gang members concerning using ethanol free gas in everything that is stored for different periods of time between uses. Not only does ethanol collect moisture from the air but it can dissolve some rubber parts in older carbs. As for using outboard motor oil in a air cooled two stroke I do have some concerns in that it is not rated for such use. I guess my fears are fueled by the early days of the 1960s where outboard motor oil was not recommended for air cooled two stroke engines because of their higher operating temperatures. On the other hand I'm sure that outboard motor oil has changed drastically for the better in the last fifty years.

Some preliminary research this morning on ratings on oils and reading labels has me somewhat bewildered. The Japanese have JASO-ratings and JASO-FC and FD are supposedly the best for air-cooled two strokes. Outboard motor oil, at least on the container has a different rating system and the Pennzoil synthetic blend outboard motor oil exceeds all of the requirements of all of the major builders of such products.

I guess my question is; Even though Rick has had no issues with outboard motor oil, would it hold up to the demands of severe temperature two stroke racing? These are just questions for discussion, not for conflict.

What think Ye?

Maxie

[Zyx]

Unless there is an engineering paper out there showing a difference between outboard oil and motorcycle two stroke oil, I would start with the assumption that the biggest difference is market target. Oil is rated for use, and a comparison between ratings for outboard and two stroke cycle oil is warranted. If the outboard oil has the same ratings, it is probably the same oil labeled to sell at the local boat dealer.

Additives are a different question. While not an expert in this area I have no recollection of ever seeing anything other than anecdotal support for fuel additives, with the exception of Stabil. I don't have a problem with fuel stabilizers. I use them too, for the same reason that premix sits in the garage for a while. I use the best fuel I can find locally, short of dedicated racing fuels which cost the same as Chinese gold bullion. Octane boosters are a waste of money, and at the dilution rate of Yamaha Ring Free, I have to doubt it does anything even with petro oils or synthetics, much less castor oil. One ounce in ten gallons is a dilution rate of 1,280:1. An ounce of water in ten gallons of fuel would go unnoticed, and the ingredients in Ring Free are, as I understand it, the same ingredients added to most gasolines. So, harmless no doubt, but beneficial? I doubt it.

Residue accumulation from castor oil is simply the price paid for the use of the product. It has definite benefits when used in a racing engine, but not in a casual rider. If you are going to be replacing piston rings every other month anyway, carbon isn't an issue, and I have never seen a motorcycle ring stuck shut due to castor oil use, mostly because I have never run one long enough on castor to find out.

So, as to the original question, I would say if accumulation of combustion byproduct is a concern, switch to synthetic oil rather than trying to turn castor oil into something it isn't.

[DGardner]

Arizona.....So how much would you need for it to work? Or is it just junk? DG

[Zyx]

If you mean how much ring free, I believe they list what they call a "shock treatment" which is two ounces to a gallon, which is 64:1 gas to additive, instead of 1,280:1. At that rate perhaps it may get do something but I don't think Yamaha intends this rate of use all the time. Question is whether it would work against accumulated bean oil residue. Only one way to find out.

If you have been using castor oil and believe your rings and combustion chamber may have excess accumulation, pull the head and look, or just to take a limited peek, pull the exhaust pipe and look inside. Then use a tank of fuel with the shock level of ring free. Take another look. Take photos for reference. Report back.

[Zyx]

"Ring Free PLUS
Exclusive, synthetic PLUS formula provides superior deposit control; cleaning fuel injectors, carburetors, intake valves, intake ports and combustion chambers. Contains metal filmers to help protect fuel system components like silver solder, copper, aluminum and steel from the corrosive affects of ethanol sulfate salt."

This is excerpted from Yamalube Ring Free Plus advertisement copy. Notice that they say nothing about carbon per se, only rust or corrosion associated with ethanol blended fuel, and "deposits." Allegedly, if you leave metal test patches submerged in ethanol blend gas, the treated gas will prevent rust while the untreated gas will allow rust. They don't say what kind of deposits are supposedly controlled, or to what extent.

I haven't yet found their data sheet or a discussion of their test protocol, but would have to guess that in order for steel to rust submerged in, say, E-15, it would take a while before rust set it. Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means it attracts water. Air contains water, and so does gasoline in very small amounts. The ethanol picks up and holds the water in suspension. Yamalube says this is bad. So do I, but have you ever used Heet in the winter to prevent gas line freeze? Methanol, which is also hygroscopic, takes moisture out of the gas and holds it in suspension.

There are very few negatives to using alcohol of any kind in gas other than that it is not a good substitute for tetra-ethyl lead an an anti-knock compound, and isn't recommended for use in air cooled motorcycles. Whether it is detrimental to modern bikes is a matter for debate. I know the AMA is lobbying against it, but we have all likely used ethanol blend gas in our bikes without much harm. I try to avoid it, but that is not the same as saying it is deadly to use in old bikes. My thinking is that it is simply more susceptible to detonation than gas with other anti-knock additives such as toluene or tetra ethyl lead.

I will keep looking time permitting and see if I can find engineering data or a ingredient list.

[Zyx]

Okay, here is a link to the MSDS data for Ring Free. Not much help because 70% of the ingredients are listed as proprietary, but assuming they are all in the same class of chemical, these things are already found in gasoline.

http://www.parkeryamaha.com/forms/ACCRNGFREE12.pdf

[junker2k]

I have had the ring stick while using castor oil along with about every kind of oil from the 60/70S. But this is in a flat tracker and we ran the motors as lean as we could and a lot of RPM's. In the late 60 they came out with gold label, it was a 8 or 12 oz can to one gallon of gas. If you were to run that stuff today you would most likely go to jail. I'm sure it contained about every cancer causing agent that I can think of, but it sure smelled good and it ran clean. Times have changed, castor oil was a good oil in its day but with the oils out there now I would go with some of the new oils. But I still like the smell.
Jack K

[hodakamax]

Hey Jack, I do remember Gold Label Blendzall which was laced with nitro or some other explosive. The flat trackers from my shop were always legal and my teamate and I avoided using it. There was a guy (and friend) who loved to race and hung around the shop. He had several children and no racing budget. We saved used parts for him and helped him in every way possible. He was fast but was no match for our two state of the art racers of the day. I clearly remember him flying past me in a short track heat what seemed to be a full ten MPH faster. All of the sudden I was showered with sparks and
pieces coming from his pipe as the engine detonated. It was all I could do to keep from running over him as the engine locked up.

I later asked what did he do to get all of that performance and his answer was "Gold Label with nitro additive".

Anyway, thats my story from the past on fuel additives. Golden Spectro was another oil that seemed to have hidden power but low rust protection on stored engines.

Max

[Zyx]

I ran Green/Gold Blend. But only when racing cross country. It indirectly caused my first and only crank failure because I didn't completely run the carb dry before switching from whatever petro oil I was using to the castor blend offered by my race mate. Oops. Finished the race fortunately, sixth in the 100 class so not so bad, but when I pulled into the pits it died and would not restart. The death rattle was awesome, but oddly I never heard it out in the woods running full bore for two hours. Lower bearings were shot, upper bearings were bad enough, rod totally wasted. Piston and rings were clean if I recall, but the bore was not.

It was a learning curve thing. But I do like the smell. Reminds me of my old .049 airplanes.

[hodakamax]

AZ, I had forgotten about those teeny .049 2 strokes that just screamed with no rings or rod bearings and a glow plug. Big fun as a kid flying control liners on nitro and bean oil. It's hard to forget that smell.

Maxie-- (I guess I'm still a kid at heart, still playing with 2 strokes).

PS--It always amazed me that an engine that small could put out that much power and make that much noise!

[Bullfrog]

And I still have about half a dozen .049s in the basement . . . and one flyable control liner (fully aerobatic, built up wing . . . reaction time and lost skills means I'm at least half a lap behind it when it is in the air!)

Ed

[hodakamax]

Ed, this confirms that two-stroke infection begins at an early age from exposure to .049s.

Max again.

[DGardner]

http://www.blendzall.com/

The Blendzall #485 Gold label is still made and from what I understand is it is a mix of the #460 Green Label and #490 power booster. I run the Green label oil and mix the power booster to my oil gas mix my self. The #490 power booster should also help or as the blenzall web site says eliminate oil gas separation.

[Zyx]

The power boost additive may help mitigate separation, but can't eliminate it. Because of castor oils molecular composition, it can not be made to dissolve into solution in gasoline, or for that matter, any other fuel far as I know. I believe bean oil, mixed into gasoline, is in suspension. It tends to remain in suspension only so long as atmospheric conditions remain fairly constant. The boost additive may be able to assist in staying in suspension, but it is still a suspension. Anything in suspension in a liquid can be reduced out of that liquid without chemical action. Some things fall out of suspension quickly, like dirt in water, and some stay in suspension fairly readily, like chocolate milk. But there remains a distinct difference between a suspension and a solution. Petro oils and synthetics derived from petro oil dissolve into gasoline, and once mixed can't be removed without significant energy applied. They are, I believe, in solution.

The fact that castor oil falls out of suspension readily actually helps when used in a two stroke engine. I don't have a problem with how it works. Only with the fact that it has a very short shelf life once mixed into gas. The fact that it produces a higher degree of carbon and varnish in the combustion chamber is simply a condition of its use.