Same Issue

[SuperRat2110]

So after installing new clutch plates and friction disks and blue-printing the hub and basket I'm still having issues with the clutch. When I start the bike and pull the clutch in, put it in gear it's fine. Once the clutch engages first gear and I disengage it still grabbing and wants to stall at slow speeds. I probably have about a quarter to 3/8 inch play in the clutch arm on the the cover. Is this a matter of shims or something else? Thanks again fellas.

[go_hercules]

If it's not disengaging when you pull the clutch in, then maybe you have too much free play which limits the amount of clutch release the hand lever can provide. Adding more shims will reduce free play and allow the clutch plates to separate more. That's what I would try.

[SuperRat2110]

That's what I'm thinking at this point. I'll order some shims and hopefully that does the trick. I know after blueprinting the parts that needed it everything moved pretty smoothly through the basket.

[go_hercules]

As a quick test, you could take out all the slack at the hand lever adjuster. In fact tighten it as much as you can by hand. That will allow the clutch to disengage further, possibly enough to keep the bike from creeping. This is only for a test to confirm that travel is your problem.

[Al Harpster]

1/4 to 3/8" is too much.

I've TRIED to attach the shop manual pages that apply.

Sorry for them being out of order. The attachment method here is a bit unique.

Print them off and take a look.

[SuperRat2110]

Thanks for all the good info. I'll check to see if I can test the clutch by take any slack out of cable and order some shims in case that's it. I used some cheep 90wt oil in the gear casing, could that be causing issues?

[Al Harpster]

Doubt it's the oil if your 1/4 to 3/8 inch estimate is right.

Believe the "Book" says set it up for 3/32" or as close to that as you can.

At the point you're at oil choice is likely small change.

Follow the "Book" instructions and you'll likely be OK.

You can select your preferred lubricant later, if ever.

[SuperRat2110]

My clutch pressure piece is also worn pretty good too. It's not even. Sits flush in its house though.

[Al Harpster]

Pressure piece could be some of your trouble, but the only wear I've seen is in the ball bearing section.

These pressure pieces have a lot of play or looseness to them. That's just the way they are.

Your symptoms are most likely due to adjustment.

But if you want to leave no stone unturned order one with a small assortment of spacers. A good used one would be fine. Doesn't have to be new.

[Al Harpster]

Oops, my mistake. You are referring to the small pin, I was talking about the Clutch Disc.

I'm skeptical that this piece is your problem source, but it'd be cheap to replace if you like.

I'd work the adjustment procedure first.

[SuperRat2110]

I ordered some shims and a new pressure piece while I'm at it. I think I really need to get the play out of the arm first. I know when it worked right there wasn't any play it it. Just curious if anyone else has put in the new clutch plates/disks and had the same issues. I have 3 shims in in already.

[go_hercules]

My bike requires a total of about 0.100 inches (2.5 mm) worth of shims. It's a lot, but it is what it is. I think the machining of the clutch cover (the piece the throwout bearing rides in) wasn't that accurate on those parts.

[Al Harpster]

Excellent observation. When I put all new discs in my clutch I needed almost all the spacers I had on hand. Lucky I had extras.

I thought maybe I screwed something up.

In my case, new clutch parts equaled more spacers.

Somehow you'd figure you'd need more spacers when it was worn out.

Turned out the opposite.

[matt glascock]

I had a problem with this concept as well It seems counterintuitive. As it was explained to me by the Captain, as the disks wear (becoming thinner) the whole clutch system moves away from the motor thus progressively eliminating the need for the spacers.

[SuperRat2110]

Interesting information guys. Good to know that this is what I should have expected had I known. Lol. Hopefully I ordered enough spacers.

[SuperRat2110]

Hey guys, still having same issues with my clutch after adding some shims to get the free play in spec. Wondering if my next step should be the pinion bushing. Anyone know what length it is?

[Hydraulic Jack]

I don't see how the pinion bushing would cause slippage. There are other things that cause slippage. Wrong plate count for the clutch cage being used, binding of the steel plates on the cage, clutch screws not adequately tightened, worn out clutch springs or using single springs instead of double springs as designed, wrong transmission oil. A bad pinion bushing usually causes the opposite problem to the one you have. When the bushing is bad the clutch won't release. The length of the bushing likely varies slightly depending on who made it and when, because there are manufacturing tolerances, and whether the bushing is new or used. That small difference in length, as long as it isn't binding, is accounted for in shim stack. The washers on either end of the bushing also vary in thickness, and change the relationship of clutch to clutch cover. Because clutch function relies on the clutch cover, the differences in tolerance and age are accounted for by using shims. That's why they are there. If the clutch release function was internalized and didn't use the cover as a point of reference, shims would likely not be needed at all.

[go_hercules]

To make sure what the symptoms are - I think you are saying the clutch is not disengaging, correct? I don't think you said it was slipping. If it's not disengaging, and the free play at the engine is about 3/32, the test method I mentioned above might be helpful. It was to take ALL free play away at the hand lever, and maybe even a little more. The idea is to get all the separation possible of the clutch pack. If the bike doesn't now creep in gear with the clutch in, you at least know that it will disengage. I have seen where the cage of the clutch is a little rotated when the clutch is assembled and this puts enough drag on the steel plates to cause a disengagement problem. This is because the clutch hub is trying to stay centered because of the side pressure of the springs, and the cage can be pushing (rotating) the opposite direction putting everything in enough of a bind to cause clutch dragging. So I would take all cable slack away and try it. Then I would probably check the assembly for dragging. When assembling the clutch, before you tighten the screws all the way and get too much spring pressure, you can push the clutch in by hand to make sure it is not dragging.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Good point. Reading too many threads in the same day. If the clutch won't release it could be the bushing. Length isn't really relevant. If the bushing has been compressed you will see galling on the running surface. If it is minor you can dress the bushing with W/D paper. Otherwise, just replace it.

Cage racking is a different problem because the circumstances that allow this to happen are pretty much built into the design. I think racking is an unintended consequence of having no locating pins on cage and covers, and seven small diameter screws trying to hold three parts in orientation under considerable force from the clutch. The clutch screws have to be quite tight, but there is a limit to what these screws will take in terms of torque. IMHO, hand tightening isn't tight enough. I use a hammer driven impact tool, but even this requires attention because you can over tighten small screws.

[Bill2001]

And what would be a maximum torque ln those clutch screws? They are 6mm and thread into the thin aluminum clutch cover, do I wouldn't expect them to take more than 10 ft-lbs and maybe a miraculous 15 ft-lbs. At any rate, they can't be that snug. I'm thinking alignment between thr cage and the covers. The bolts would provide enough clamping force to hold things together and even 2-3 1/16" would keep the covers from rotating.

[Hydraulic Jack]

The screws are 5mm x 0.8mm and the aluminum cover threads are about a quarter inch deep, so there is a fair amount of meat there to use. There is, or should be, a standard torque value for this size screw, which I would have to look up, but since the screws are Phillips or some Japanese variation thereof, a torque value won't do much good without something more sophisticated than what I have. I can't keep a small Phillips driver seated in the screw while trying to set torque with a wrench, so I use a calibrated, Mark 1, arm and hammer. I have never stripped one of these, so the system seems fairly stout. The screws just have to be tight.

If you mean would two or three 1/16" locating pins work to keep the parts from racking, I would say yes. However, in would use a drill press to make such locating holes, and I don't have a drill press. Yet. Plus, whatever one does here they would need to be in balance.

[Al Harpster]

The seven little screws CAN be tightened with a 1/4" wratchet wrench and a Phillips bit that fits in one of the 1/4" wratchet sockets.

They seem to be hardened screws, but if you get too tough with them you can tear up the Phillips slots a bit.

You've been through hell and back on this thing, so forgive me for asking...... do you have the Hodaka Workshop manual?

Generally if you follow this thing you're pretty much OK.

If you do have it, email me with your adIdress and I will send you a bunch of good used parts, most of what you haven't already replaced, but not springs.

But do it soon, I'm out of town for 2 weeks starting Sunday

Aharpsteratcopperdotnet

[go_hercules]

Good points from everyone, but I respectfully disagree that screw tightness will have any effect in this instance. The symptom is clutch dragging after assembly. Unless the cage was racked a little at assembly, I don't think it would have already slipped out of position. Just a thought.

[taber hodaka]

I have never had a clutch screw problem if it needed a torque value Hodaka would have listed it. I just tighten them by hand tight. ----------Clarence

[Hydraulic Jack]

I agree that if Hodaka wanted a torque value -- other than standard value for size and class of bolt -- Hodaka would have listed it. Protocol suggests that if no value is stated, torque value is standard. There are other variables, such as proof load of the nut or item secured, but we don't have data for that.

Industry standard torque values for 5mm x 0.8mm are:

8.8 grade - 54 inch pounds dry, 41 inch pounds lubed
10.9 grade - 78 inch pounds dry, 59 inch pounds lubed
12.9 grade - 91 inch pounds dry, 68 inch pounds lubed.

Phillips head screws do not lend themselves to torquing using a calibrated wrench. You have to push down on the driver head to keep the driver engaged, which falsifies the reading. Which is why I use an impact tool.

Also, even though stock screws are likely hardened, does anyone know what grade they are? I don't. So I use 12.9 graded counter-sunk screws with a hex drive head. Those you can torque using a wrench and a hex driver.

As tight as you can get the stock screws without beating the crap out of them is tight enough. Hand tight with a screw driver isn't tight enough. Your results may vary. Clarence, define "problem." I have had stock screws fail from being too loose, and have had the assembly rack and make defined marks from racking in both directions no matter how tight stock screws get. If racking isn't a problem for you, then it isn't a problem. For you. It is for me because it causes undue stress and eventual failure. If racking were not a "problem" then why "blueprint" the clutch parts?