Slow going off the line

[sparkyj]

I think the manual refers to the 2 washers as Inner Clutch thrust washer and outer Clutch thrust washer.

i remember seeing both and I remember placing the Inner washer against the main bearing. Now the thinner washer must have been stuck to the clutch hub because, in my minds eye, I don't recall noticing it going back in. And there are no left overs in the try! (wife cookie sheet, ....argh!. Busted).
Pretty sure it is there, but ave to check now.

Ironically the Ace 100 (not 100B) addendum does not show a picture of the rotor gear cluster, so I assume it would be similar to the ace 90.

Anyway, may have to open it up again.
Q: what does a squashed pinion bearing act/sound like?

When I got the bike, it did not have a Magneto side cover. I found a complete Ace 100 cover with the shifter setup.
Wondering if something could be pushing through and making a weird contact on that side now. Or if a gear index is off. Not sure how this works yet but will be more enlightened when this is resolved. Thank to all of you for your attentive help. What a great group.

dc

[go_hercules]

I just discovered this thread and read the whole thing. I am just wondering if the throw out disk bearing noise is just "normal" for Hodakas. My Dirt Squirt makes a rattling sound when the clutch is disengaged. I have only seen in person about three other Hodakas and they all made a similar rattling sound. If an experienced Hodaka guru heard the OP's bike, or mine, in person they might say "oh that is normal". Is that possible, or is a correctly functioning Hodaka clutch pretty much silent when disengaged???

[matt glascock]

Hi Sparky, If you are referring to the pinion bushing, a mushroomed condition of that bushing gave me the "grawnch" sound on clutch disengagement on a 94 Wombat pre-clutch rebuild. Also, be sure the oil grooves open to the motor side. Tried it the other way - briefly. Not so good.

PS Love the cookie sheet appropriation. I paid dues for similar use of muffin tin. Oopsies...

[Hydraulic Jack]

If the pinion bushing has been over-tightened it won't feel right when you push the bushing into the pinion gear during installation or if you test fit the pieces before hand. Instead of smooth and slippery it will be sticky or may simply stick in place. The bushing will also likely have serious scars on it from metal to metal contact. What it acts like in use is a sticky clutch. It would be hard to shift gears and might be hard to keep running at an idle in gear with the clutch held in. I suppose it could squawk when you pull the clutch.

Are all Hodaka rattley when the clutch is pulled? No. Not sure I would call them perfectly silent, but I wouldn't want to hear a rattle noise. I usually hear a slight whine if anything, but no rattles, clanks, or other hard metal noise.

Sparky, whether you have a mushroomed bushing or washers missing or out of place, either way you will have to pull the assembly. By now you should have this procedure down cold.

The implication attending a mushroomed bushing is an over-torqued clutch nut. Always use a torque wrench with the correct calibration range. If you are worried about nuts coming off, which they usually don't, use some locktite. You can even use locktite on the clutch rotor splines. It makes things a bit tougher to take apart, but will eliminate loose nuts.

[go_hercules]

Dang, it's not supposed to rattle. Maybe I should pull mine apart and follow along since now is a good time to learn. You guys were saying that the throw out bearing was a possibility to Sparky's noise, but since it is under pressure seems it likely isn't. And if the crank bearings are okay, what the heck else is free to move, thus making noise. I'm sure I need to re-read this whole thing but just trying to visualize what is freed up when clutch is disengaged. Seems like the noise would be easy to find since there just aren't that many parts. But sometimes the little things take forever to put your finger on.

And Sparky, I watched your videos. The one where you were turning the clutch pack by hand, it seems that you could hear a little clanking, or rattling. At 14 seconds into the video titled clutch inspection, I think I hear the rattling noise.

[sparkyj]

https://youtu.be/ugp52-pEtfc
OK check out at 5 seconds when you can just see the clutch lever move in the foreground, the gear box is farting.
Sorry best analogy I could think of at the moment.
It a puffy gear-y grind like a ratcheting sound

[Bullfrog]

A couple of points . . . 1) in the 4th video, about 28 seconds or so in . . . we could hear clunks and mayhaps even see movement of the clutch as you pulled up on it. You even commented " . . . a little bit of movement there." When you grab the clutch by hand and pull straight up on it (like you did in the video) NOTHING should move until the forces applied are large enough for you to be moving the whole bike. In that scenario, the clutch should NOT move relative to the crank unless the nut is loose. The clutch and the crank should behave as a single piece - so if the clutch moves up, the crank should move with it. EXCEPT . . . since the clutch nut is presumed to be tight and that "tightness" pulls the crank tight to the inside of the main bearing and clutch tight to the outside of the main bearing . . . we now have a situation where the crank should only move up IF the bearing has some kind of slop which allows it to move up. (Which sort of seems like the situation you have.) If the bearing was good (no slop), in order for the crank/clutch assy to move up, the main bearing would also have to move up - and since the bearing is supposed to be rigidly installed in the engine case, the engine case would also have to move up . . . and (gasp) since the engine case is bolted in the frame, the frame would have to move up too! Since the frame/case assy didn't lift off the ground . . . but the clutch/crank assy DID appear to lift up (and clanked?) . . . it appears to me that you have a main bearing problem. Which will require "splitting the cases" for bearing and seal replacement.

2) On your testing of the clutch disk (throw out bearing), the flopping of things around didn't tell me anything. What we needed to know was . . . if you press on the center of the button and rotate it - does it "feel" and sound good. (i.e. is it a good ball bearing?) Those are the forces involved when you pull in the clutch lever - pressure is applied and things are turning.

Finally, if you lost more oil than a few drops dripping from the clutch cover (and you did), then there is another significant problem. I tend to agree with the suggestion that your counter-shaft seal is baaaaaad. But you can fix that when you go after the main bearing problem.

Oh yeah, one more "finally" - if you would/could prop up your video recording device (phone?) so we could SEE the clutch lever movement WHILE listening to the sounds we might learn more if you did multiple "cycles" of clutch application. The existing video just didn't really allow vision and hearing to be used together. (and I'm not sure I heard anything particularly unusual) But I sure didn't like what I think I saw and heard at that 28 second point.
Ed

[go_hercules]

Sparky, when you had things apart, I was wondering how the fit was between the clutch hub and the clutch cage (looks like a gear inside a ring in your photos). If that fit is sloppy, seems like it could cause rattling when the clutch is disengaged. Just a thought.....

[taber hodaka]

Is there a chipped tooth on the clutch pinion gear? Damage? -------------Clarence

[go_hercules]

Matt, if you happen to read this I had a question about your above post. You said that a mushroomed pinion bushing gave you that graunch sound. Can you explain why the bushing being mushroomed causes this sound. I don't understand what physically makes the sound because of this. Thanks.

[Hydraulic Jack]

A mushroomed bushing can sqwauk due to friction between bushing and pinion gear. The pinion rides on the bushing and should move freely. If the bushing is overtightened, it gets distorted making it fatter than it should be, and thus too big for the hole. Riding down the road, the pinion and bushing are turning at the same speed because the clutch is engaged. When you pull the lever and release the clutch, the pinion gear is no longer driven by the clutch, but the crankshaft is still turning, and the bushing allows the gear to become stationary, or turn more slowly, than the crankshaft. Like coasting to a stop with the bike in gear and clutch pulled in, or sitting at the start line with the bike in gear but standing still.

At that point, the pinion bushing is turning with the crank but the pinion is not. If the bushing is mushroomed and binding inside the pinion, pulling in the clutch will produce the sound of the bushing and gear rubbing violently against each other. This can produce a growl or sqwuak noise that you can hear. If the bushing gets hot enough to transfer metal it will bind and defeat the clutch.

[go_hercules]

EXCELLENT explanation. I picture just what you're saying. I was thinking the sound, whether you call it rattling, growling, etc. was coming from something bouncing around, but I see how the binding could cause such a noise. Would probably explain why so many Hodakas make that noise, since it so easy to overtighten the nut. Guess mine will come apart for inspection now that I know what to look for.

[taber hodaka]

Torque wrenches are cheap at harbor freight or pawn shops. If you do not have one, do not take your engine apart. Parts are more expensive than torque wrenches. Buy a manual also. To me it is hard to overtighten clutch nuts.-----Clarence

[go_hercules]

I usually tighten fasteners until they won't go anymore, then add 1 additional turn.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Tighten until either the threads strip or the stud breaks, then back off half to three quarters turn.....

Check the manual or the Strictly Hodaka model specifications to find a list of torque values. Anything on the bike that has a stated torque value has that value for a reason. Sometimes the reason has to do with properly stressing a stud or bolt, or achieving a friction load that won't back out. In the case if the pinion bushing, the value is a determined setting at which the bushing and clutch assembly will be adequately tightened so as to load the right side crank bearing without distortion of the bushing, which is pretty soft compared to the hard steel parts around it. Done right, the clutch is firmly attached, the crank doesn't wander, the bushing isn't squashed, and everyone is happy. Done wrong, the bushing is distorted, and service life is seriously compromised.

Clarence is exactly right. Proper tools are cheaper than vintage parts. Always torque the clutch nut with a torque wrench in the proper inch pound range. Faking it doesn't work all that often.

[Bullfrog]

I had an ongoing debate once with someone who shall remain un-named. This person adamantly maintained that tightening the clutch nut by "feel" was perfectly adequate, but that the cylinder head nuts and the magneto flywheel nut should certainly be tightened to the proper torque . . . and that a torque wrench was indeed a part of his tool inventory. After several exchanges supporting our individual contentions on the matter, it was revealed that the torque wrench in the gentleman's inventory only worked in the "righty tighty" direction, so it could not be used to tighten the clutch nut to spec. (and he sure wasn't going to add a second torque wrench to his tool inventory). Um, get a torque wrench which works in both directions and use it. Proper torque for the ACE 100 series clutch nut is 250 in-lbs.
Ed

[matt glascock]

Hey Go, Just saw your inquiry regarding the pinion bushing and that it was answered about..uh...infinitely better that I could've by HJ. So, in answer to your question - what he said.

[go_hercules]

Thanks Matt. So after you changed that bushing, did your clutch get noticeably quieter, did the growling and graunching go away altogether?

[matt glascock]

Hi Go, I changed the pinion gear and bushing as a set because, as HJ elegantly described, the deformed bushing appeared to have "machined" the inside of the pinion gear to some extent. I also replaced the thrust and lock washers and rebuilt/blue printed the clutch with the upgraded clutch plates. The clutch works perfectly and is buttery smooth. At idle, when I disengage the clutch, there is a soft, gentle "whirring" sound which, I've been assured, is entirely normal. No grawnch, no clank, no crunch whatsoever. There is an excellent, step-by-step treatise on clutch rebuilding contained in the Official Wombat Shop Manual. It allowed a hack like me perform a believable impersonation of a top-notch wrench

[go_hercules]

Thanks, I think I will take mine apart tomorrow and have a look. Always thought that rattling/growling was normal. But it will be nice to hear it purr instead. Thanks.

[matt glascock]

Pay careful attention to the bushing, Go. The deformity at either end may be subtle but if you feel a "ridge" along either mating surface, its shot. Also inspect the inside of the pinion gear. Once it all comes together, you'll love it.

[taber hodaka]

I have never changed the thrust washers. If you install the bushing backwards it cannot get oil. I also oil as I install.----Clarence

[matt glascock]

Agreed Clarence. I kept the thrust washers as they looked fine. I just changed all the components as a unit so they could wear in together as a unit with the end result being a "factory fresh" clutch. Fortunately I already made the bushing mistake before this rebuild. Lesson learned. Moved on.

[Hydraulic Jack]

I mentioned earlier about relieving the clutch rotor the same way the blueprinting suggests doing for the drive plates. Here's why:

Notice the dent in one tooth from contact with the cage screw.

View of the obverse aspect of the same area.

Here's what it looks like when filed with a quarter inch file.


To have something as heavy as the clutch rotor banging against the screws hard enough to make these wear marks cause eventual failure of the screw. When a screw fails, half the screw will end up floating around under the clutch cover in proximity of the primary gears. Not good.

[matt glascock]

Hydraulic, do you have an opinion regarding fully-threaded vs. half-threaded screws for clutch rebuilds? I see a lot of very hilly courses with a lot of deep sand and subsequently, my clutches take a sound thrashing. I (possibly erroneously) operate under the "clutch rebuilding is cheaper than transmission rebuilding" theory. All my clutches are safety wired. I recently scored a sizeable stash of half-threaded screws. Are they equal in terms of strength and durability? Thanks you!