Slow going off the line

[sparkyj]

The clutch is making noise throughout the entire pull of the clutch. The same as before. yes.

[sparkyj]

Bill. Maybe I need more spacers. The lever moves more than 3/16 for sure. Just trying to imagine why the "graunch" sound would occur through the entire pull of the clutch distance. Just sounds "bad". (original problem). Maybe it is a cable adjustment at the case, but to be honest it sounds like maybe this rattling in occuring even in the slackest position and increasing as you pull the clutch. Make sense? I can try and create a video.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Sparky, we need to establish some baseline data. Several items in no particular order:

1. When you say you installed new clutch parts, new style, I am going to assume you mean friction discs, but how many did you install? How many steel drive plates?

2. There was discussion on how to blueprint your clutch. Did you do any of the procedures outlined in the blueprinting process? Particularly, did you address washboard grooves in the clutch cage?

3. Are the clutch assembly screws in your clutch stock items or full thread replacements? Did you fully tighten those screws on assembly?

4. While the clutch was apart, did you measure the height of the clutch cage? Over the years Hodaka made several clutchs that are nearly impossible to tell apart, but which do not all have the same part count. That is, if you put the right number of clutch plates for an Ace 100 into a clutch with a cage from a Super Combat, the parts will fit but you won't have a clutch that works. So, when ordering friction discs, did you start with the assumption that the clutch you have is correct for your model of engine? If so, that assumption could possibly be wrong.

5. When installing the assembled clutch, did you put back the spacers you had, or did you start from scratch and verify how many spacers were needed to properly index the clutch? If you merely but back what was there, it may or may not be what you need. Remember, your clutch didn't work right to start with. Putting back the same spacers only puts you back where you started, and that may not be where you need to be.

6. Does the clutch rotor have smooth teeth or are the edges dinged and sharp. The drive plates are not the only pieces in the clutch assembly that must move freely against the cage. While it is not mentioned in the blueprinting explanation, I believe the rotor has to be relieved in the same way the drive plates are relieved, and for the same reason.

7. Is the clutch actuating arm free to move when the clutch cover is off the bike? No drag, no crunch? This is a process of eliminating possibles. There are only so many parts involved, so you have to verify that the crunch isn't caused by a) the clutch lever (hand lever not case arm), b) clutch cable including adjustment ends, c) actuating arm on the cover, or d) thrust button, before you can say with certainty that the noise is coming from e) the clutch pack.

But most likely, the noise is coming from the clutch and not the levers and cable. Easy to check these things. If it is coming from the clutch pack, I would say it has to come back out. Take it apart and start over. I don't know of a comprehensive listing of clutch case heights, but there are enough folks out there who have these things in their garage that we may be able to positively verify which cage you have and then how many discs are needed. Post photos of that cage including a view of the gear teeth inside the cage. These engagement teeth are aluminum and the drive plates are steel. Excessive wear on the aluminum teeth will cause a graunchy clutch. As will drive plates dragging on screws, especially if the screws are full thread and not smooth shank style. Think "blueprint clutch."

I suppose we should also verify that the clutch springs are fully seated in their respective pockets within the clutch. They can get out of orientation during assembly, although if one of the springs is sideways, I would think the clutch would not work at all. I have never tried putting one together with a spring sideways, but no doubt it can be done.

Lots of details in this process. Start over, photo document what you have, and we go from there. The clutch assembly is not the simplest piece of a Hodaka.

[Bullfrog]

Since you have strange noise all the time when you pull in the clutch lever, I have to wonder if the bearings in the "clutch disc" (I think of it more as the "throw out bearing") are shot. The clutch disc (as it is named in the Illustrated Parts manuals) is the item between the clutch pressure piece in the clutch cover and the clutch - and the spacer shims go under it. Anyway, if just the slightest pressure on the clutch system to disengage it starts the noise - then a close inspection of the clutch disc is appropriate.
Ed
PS: If the clutch disc checks out with no problems . . . the next suspect is crank bearing.
PPS: Sorry for high jacking the thread there for a while with our hi-jinks . . . but now we are back on topic.

[sparkyj]

Thanks HJ,
Here's a quick reply (well it took some time and I appreciate your very detailed reply)


1. When you say you installed new clutch parts.....
I got the Clutch rebuild kit Item# 934000kit for the Mdl 92, 93, 94, and 96
It has 3 black (thinner than stock) steel clutch plates and 4 fiber friction discs (with the holes in it).
They were assembled in the same order as the old discs which was just like the drawing in the manual, For the ACE 100B clutch assembly.
(I feel there is a gray area here with the later model 100A aces, which I assume is what I have, example-Wiring diagram is same as Ace 90)
I took special care to make sure the clutch plates made it into the groves of the clutch cage while tightening the 7 screws.

Honestly I don’t understand how those plates are supposed to move when you eliminate all possible motion when tightening the cage cover down. Is there still a tad bit of spring play left?

2. There was discussion on how to blueprint your clutch.......
I don’t have access to the blueprinting article, So perhaps I need to join the Hodaka Club to gain access.

3. Are the clutch assembly screws in your clutch stock items.......
They are the stock screws with the drilled holes in the end. They are tight and wired

4. While the clutch was apart, did you measure the height of the clutch cage........
Did not measure the height of the clutch cage. What height are we looking for?
I assumed it was correct since I did not uncover any warnings from the manual. That said, seems like the manual sort of doesn’t address the model that is in between an Ace 90 and a model 100B

5. When installing the assembled clutch, did you put back the spacers you had......
I did not have a set of clutch disc spacers handy. I put back the one spacer that was on the clutch disc upon disassembly. if I had a set of spacers, I would have been able to dial that in better so, this for sure will be needed.
Q: Would the lack of spacing account for a growl throughout the entire range of clutch pull? Sounds like the shaft is getting forced into a wonky set of bearings.

6. Does the clutch rotor have smooth teeth or are the edges dinged and sharp....
On page 2 of this thread I posted images of the gears, download/file.php?id=5347&mode=view
They seemed pretty good. Looking at the picture now there appears to be a questionable wear mark on one of the teeth but i think that is a reflection. I replaced the pinion bushing with a new one. I reused the thrust washer and btw, there was no way to tell which side of the washer was the “round edge” side. Both edges looked right angled. (sharp)

7. Is the clutch actuating arm free to move when the clutch cover is off the bike...
Arm moved freely. As well it doesn't seem to leak.
The crunch almost sounds like it is coming from the gear shifter side. with even the slightest clutch pull (like 1/4”), you hear the Knogga Knogga Knogga….). This is why I’m wondering about a crank shaft issue if the pressure of the applied clutch is putting pressure on something.

....Post photos of that cage including a view of the gear teeth inside the cage.....

previous photos are here (simply back up a few pages)

I will have to disassemble again to get complete pictures.

....verify that the clutch springs are fully seated ...

I was carful to seat the springs. This has the single 7 spring set up. Would be curious to know your approach to lining up the fiber discs, metal discs, cage and shaft teeth to keep it al together so you can tighten it down whilst keeping metal disks from getting pinched and not getting slight movement off the shaft splines. i had to do this very carefully several times. Was a PITA. The manual definition is confusing!

Thanks guys!
Dave

[sparkyj]

Since you have strange noise all the time when you pull in the clutch lever, I have to wonder if the bearings in the "clutch disc"

Ed, you may be on to something.

that disc was all wobbly. Now I don't know what acceptable amount of 'wobbly" is passable on an old bike but if that little thing could make a lot of noise to transfer through the case, it might be easier to start there than ripping the case apart.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Thanks for your answers. Here are two photos of what Ed refers to:

In the second photo you can just see a couple of bearings peeking out from under. The small shaft and button head ride on this bearing. The shaft is pretty much free to wander a bit until the button head is under pressure, at which point the bearing is loaded and should roll freely without wobble. No grit. Any grittiness you feel in hand is greatly amplified in use. This piece can be accessed without removing the clutch, just the clutch cover needs to be removed.

From your responses I would be willing to say let the clutch itself be for now. Sounds like you did well putting it together. Washboard on the cage won't cause the noise you hear, it is just a step in building a good sound smooth clutch.

Which leaves us with these two possibles: 1) the clutch piece in the photo has a bad bearing or is full of grit, 2) one or more of the crankshaft bearings is bad. Hopefully it is number one. A bad crank bearing may be able to be felt with the clutch cover off. First, spark plug out to relieve compression, turn the crank by spinning the clutch with your hand. Feel for grit. If there is roughness in the rotating assembly, it's time to replace bearings and seals. If it passes a free rotation test, now rotate the clutch as before, but this time push in firmly on the clutch assembly toward the crank and rotate back and forth. If there is roughness now where there wasn't before, it is probably a bad bearing race on one or the other of the bearings, and it is time to rebuild.

If it is neither of these things, it may be that whatever is wrong can't be felt just turning slowly by hand, and only present itself at speed and under real time loads. If this is the case, it may still be the bearings, but here it would probably take an experienced ear and hand to guess correctly, which probably leaves you either to make your own best guess, or just rebuild the engine with new bearings.

As for how the clutch works when screws are fully tightened -- the rotor stays put and the whole darned clutch presses in and out. If there was no compressibility in the assembly, there would be no need for springs inside, so yes, it does still have compressibility in the springs. It is the cage that moves over rotor and plates, not the plates that move inside by pressing on the assembly. There are digital examples of wet clutch function on the internet. Look around. They all function similarly if not always the same.

Oh, and you will need to buy a selection of spacers. One usually isn't enough to preload the assembly, and there is no fixed combination of spacers that is right for all. This is one of those "shim to fit" things. Measure the one you have, and buy a couple of other thicknesses. Then you can find the combo that is right for you. Mine, for example, uses three shims for a total of 1.46mm in shim thickness. Yours will likely vary but may use two to four shims depending on which thicknesses you have or need.

[sparkyj]

Thanks HJ,
Looks like I'll be draining this oil no less than 2 more times. I better go finish up the sour cream and salsa in the fridge. Need the tubs

[Bullfrog]

No need to drain the oil. Lay the bike down on the shifter side (protect the shifter). Wind the kick start lever back and hold it out of the way with a long screw driver. Remove clutch cover. Do inspection. Use heavy grease to hold clutch pressure piece in its bore when you reinstall the clutch cover. Voila - no need to drain your fresh oil.
Ed
PS: Hydraulic . . . deburring the clutch hub is mentioned in the Blue Printing article (with photo.)

[sparkyj]

Hey Ed, thats smart! does the oil drain to the other side? does the bike have to be totally flat?

here's a video.
its hot here so don't laugh at my flip flops, heh...
Was trying to keep it lit while giving the clutch a few squeezes (and holding the phone)

https://youtu.be/ugp52-pEtfc

[sparkyj]

Clutch disc video
https://youtu.be/TTAzyj6dUfk

I have to post one url at a time. Sorry.

I know, its a wonky wire job using old original wire. getting new wire soon.

[sparkyj]

Clutch disc vid 2
https://youtu.be/9O8To01vDZ8

[sparkyj]

Clutch rotation inspection
https://youtu.be/JD8wFJ25b8c

Ed, when I laid the bike flat, the oil went out a vent somewhere when I stood the bike back up, and drained out the other side somewhere. What could have happened? i want to avoid that in future...

[taber hodaka]

The clutch disk bearing looks good to me. I think you might have loose or excessive ring side play? I also think you could be missing the thrust washer under the clutch? The groove's that exit the pinion bushing must face the engine. If you lost oil out the left hand side your seal behind the sprocket is bad, or the o ring on the shift shaft is missing. The clutch should not move in and out with the crank shaft. --------------Clarence

[sparkyj]

Thanks Clarence.
Excessive side play? the spacer ring?
Thrust washer is there, last in line up against the big bearing. Pinion bearing X is facing engine.
bad Sprocket seal makes sense.

[Hydraulic Jack]

PS: Hydraulic . . . deburring the clutch hub is mentioned in the Blue Printing article (with photo.)

Deburring, yes. But unless I missed something, you don't talk about radiusing the rotor teeth corresponding with the screws, as is shown with the drive plates. I was suggesting that if the plates should be filed with a quarter inch file to eliminate possible contact with the screws, why not the rotor which has the same profile as the drive plates?

[Hydraulic Jack]

The clutch should not move in and out with the crank shaft. --------------Clarence

Well, actually the clutch is bolted to the crankshaft with a fair amount of torque, so I would conclude that the clutch actually would move sideways with the crank if there is play in the crank. Maybe there shouldn't be any sideplay that a person can find with their hands or see with the eye, but the clutch pretty much does have to track sideplay in the crank. The natural ability of the clutch body to move away from contact with the rotor to release the clutch is something else entirely. Most folks will find it hard to do to compress the clutch springs by hand. So just shaking the clutch by hand, you will find the clutch goes where the crankshaft goes.

[Hydraulic Jack]

Sparky,

Your videos were helpful. In the first I didn't hear any grinding, so not sure what you are hearing. Maybe my sound system isn't up to the task.

The clutch throw out bearing is normal. The wobble you see happens because the bearing is only lightly captured when not under pressure. In use, the button on the shaft will be pressed down very strongly by the thrust piece and only then will the bearing really be doing anything. Don't worry about the shake in the stem. The stem only centers the piece. I didn't see clearly that you pressed down while turning the stem, but what I saw looked normal and I didn't hear anything gritty.

How much sideplay is allowable between the bearing piece and the clutch body is anyone's guess. I don't think there was ever a dimension stated for that, and I doubt yours is out of spec. Mine has a few thousandths of play side to side and doesn't make noise, so that's probably okay too.

The small amount of shake in the crank may well be more than allowable. I have exactly zero detectable endplay on my crank on two separate engines sitting here in the shop. No end shake, no run out. Not that can be seen or felt anyway. I simply can not shake the crank or clutch. Not in and out, not up and down. Nada. So if you can shake your clutch around by hand, and assuming it was bolted down to spec when you did that, I would say the crank bearings are out of spec, or something is missing in the build such as the thrust washer between the crank bearing and the clutch bushing and primary gear -- something that lets the clutch float a bit where it should be under a torqued load. Recheck the assembly list against the exploded diagram. The very first piece that goes on the clutch side crankshaft during clutch reassembly is a heavy thrust washer. The washer under the clutch nut should bottom on the clutch and not on the crank shaft splines.

[taber hodaka]

The clutch side rests up against the bearing and is torqued against it and should not have side play, the flywheel side floats. There should be no in and out side play in the crank when the clutch is torqued. There should not be any up and down play in the crank. The thrust washer is about .083 thick. the crankshaft should have just noticeable side play before you torque the clutch ------------Clarence "Note there are two thrust washers on the clutch side one thick one thin".

[Hydraulic Jack]

Thoughts concerning the clutch thrust washers and pressure piece shims:

It is pretty easy to confuse the washers that go into the clutch build. Clarence is right that there are two thrust washers, and that they are not the same size. I can't find a ready reference regarding thicknesses or which goes in first, but I believe Clarence is also right that the thicker one goes against the bearing, and the thinner one goes inside the clutch gear against the bushing. Both of these washers are what I would think of as thicker than your average washer. Also, the order in which all these parts go together makes a difference in how the internal components relate to each other. Leaving out either of the washers will place the clutch assembly closer to the engine case and farther away from the clutch cover, which in turn would change the amount of shim needed to set the clutch arm free play. Leaving one out could also cause the clutch retaining nut to bottom on the crank shaft before placing pressure on the clutch rotor, which would cause the clutch to wobble on the shaft. That would be bad and I suppose it could cause a lot of noise with the clutch lever pulled in.

Anyway, there are three washers in the clutch side assembly. A thrust washer against the crank bearing, a thrust washer between the clutch bushing and the rotor, and a lock washer under the nut. You can verify that you have put all these washers in proper place without disassembling the clutch pack itself. Just remove the left hand thread nut and slip all the parts off the shaft.

I played with the washers and shims just to get a sense of how leaving one out affects the assembly, and I find that leaving any of the two thrust washers out places the clutch assembly very close to the primary gear, opening the gap between the clutch and the cover. Also moving the thinner thrust washer from behind the rotor to in front of the rotor also changed the shim stack height by a couple of millimeters, and although it will go together this way, and torque down as needed, it shifts the clutch away from the cover a lot, and it isn't right.

Bottom line, be careful to verify that you have all the right parts in their proper place. The clutch assembly will go together in two or three ways that look right, but only one of those ways is right. If that isn't sufficiently confusing, let me know.

[sparkyj]

I think the manual refers to the 2 washers as Inner Clutch thrust washer and outer Clutch thrust washer.

i remember seeing both and I remember placing the Inner washer against the main bearing. Now the thinner washer must have been stuck to the clutch hub because, in my minds eye, I don't recall noticing it going back in. And there are no left overs in the try! (wife cookie sheet, ....argh!. Busted).
Pretty sure it is there, but ave to check now.

Ironically the Ace 100 (not 100B) addendum does not show a picture of the rotor gear cluster, so I assume it would be similar to the ace 90.

Anyway, may have to open it up again.
Q: what does a squashed pinion bearing act/sound like?

When I got the bike, it did not have a Magneto side cover. I found a complete Ace 100 cover with the shifter setup.
Wondering if something could be pushing through and making a weird contact on that side now. Or if a gear index is off. Not sure how this works yet but will be more enlightened when this is resolved. Thank to all of you for your attentive help. What a great group.

dc

[go_hercules]

I just discovered this thread and read the whole thing. I am just wondering if the throw out disk bearing noise is just "normal" for Hodakas. My Dirt Squirt makes a rattling sound when the clutch is disengaged. I have only seen in person about three other Hodakas and they all made a similar rattling sound. If an experienced Hodaka guru heard the OP's bike, or mine, in person they might say "oh that is normal". Is that possible, or is a correctly functioning Hodaka clutch pretty much silent when disengaged???

[matt glascock]

Hi Sparky, If you are referring to the pinion bushing, a mushroomed condition of that bushing gave me the "grawnch" sound on clutch disengagement on a 94 Wombat pre-clutch rebuild. Also, be sure the oil grooves open to the motor side. Tried it the other way - briefly. Not so good.

PS Love the cookie sheet appropriation. I paid dues for similar use of muffin tin. Oopsies...

[Hydraulic Jack]

If the pinion bushing has been over-tightened it won't feel right when you push the bushing into the pinion gear during installation or if you test fit the pieces before hand. Instead of smooth and slippery it will be sticky or may simply stick in place. The bushing will also likely have serious scars on it from metal to metal contact. What it acts like in use is a sticky clutch. It would be hard to shift gears and might be hard to keep running at an idle in gear with the clutch held in. I suppose it could squawk when you pull the clutch.

Are all Hodaka rattley when the clutch is pulled? No. Not sure I would call them perfectly silent, but I wouldn't want to hear a rattle noise. I usually hear a slight whine if anything, but no rattles, clanks, or other hard metal noise.

Sparky, whether you have a mushroomed bushing or washers missing or out of place, either way you will have to pull the assembly. By now you should have this procedure down cold.

The implication attending a mushroomed bushing is an over-torqued clutch nut. Always use a torque wrench with the correct calibration range. If you are worried about nuts coming off, which they usually don't, use some locktite. You can even use locktite on the clutch rotor splines. It makes things a bit tougher to take apart, but will eliminate loose nuts.

[go_hercules]

Dang, it's not supposed to rattle. Maybe I should pull mine apart and follow along since now is a good time to learn. You guys were saying that the throw out bearing was a possibility to Sparky's noise, but since it is under pressure seems it likely isn't. And if the crank bearings are okay, what the heck else is free to move, thus making noise. I'm sure I need to re-read this whole thing but just trying to visualize what is freed up when clutch is disengaged. Seems like the noise would be easy to find since there just aren't that many parts. But sometimes the little things take forever to put your finger on.

And Sparky, I watched your videos. The one where you were turning the clutch pack by hand, it seems that you could hear a little clanking, or rattling. At 14 seconds into the video titled clutch inspection, I think I hear the rattling noise.